Might depend on producer. I’ve had both from PYCM and Bouchard many times over many vintages. While I always find Genevrieres to be very good, I usually find Perrieres to be even better, from those two producers.
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So pardon my ignorance but is the designation based on quality of the very best producer or on the average (or something else). To the extent it’s terroir I’d assume the average?
So pardon my ignorance but is the designation based on quality of the very best producer or on the average (or something else). To the extent it’s terroir I’d assume the average?
In my book, if a site is true grand cru quality, that’s something you should be able to perceive from any quality producer, not just the ones that sell 6-packs for the price of a car.
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Have you bought a car lately ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
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Certainly agree here, but not Amoureuses, or CSJ?
Perhaps, but some of the not so big ones also underwhelm. i’m not sure that I’ve ever had a great Chapelle-Chambertin, or a Ruchottes (despite a number of tries with M-G). And then there’s Corton…
Not from experience. Both superb 1er Crus.
We have done quite a few tastings of the better 1er Crus with our Monday Table group over the years, including Cros Parantoux. There has never been a tasting where we all agree that promotion is worthy.
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Ruchottes is one of the hyphen Chambertins I’d keep. MG and Roumier are worthy, and I hear Rousseau doesn’t suck either. Totally agree on Chapelle hyphen.
In terms of those I have drunk, no doubt in my mind at all, I’ve had an awful lot of disappointing Perrieres. In whites in particular, though, vineyard is almost unimportant compared to producer.
Of the reds listed (I can’t speak of Cros Parantoux, I have drunk two but both were so unready as to be unassessable) I don’t think any apart from Amoureuses are at the level of a top GC but all except possibly those in Pommard can easily surpass lesser versions of Charmes, Corton or Echezeaux.
In this I agree
“So pardon my ignorance but is the designation based on quality of the very best producer or on the average (or something else). To the extent it’s terroir I’d assume the average?”
I would think that this question pertains as well to the “exercise” of demoting of certain Grand Crus…whether it is based on underperforming GC vineyards on average performance across a slew of producers, or as judged by how they perform in the best of hands. Do you judge Clos Vougeot by the average, or by M-G for example, or Charmes-Ch by the average or by Bachelet and Roty, etc.
Also, are there any not good but great Latricieres?
I have yet to find a Genevrieres that I like better than the same producer’s Perrieres. Open to trying though. Any specific producers/vintages that you can steer me towards?
The entire premise of this post isn’t particularly useful. Amoureuses, CSJ, and especially Cros Parantoux are more expensive than many Grand Cru. Most good 1er are more expensive than lower tier grand cru. You’re better off finding value in Clos de Vougeot or Corton than by looking for highly regarded 1er.
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I had a 1999 Ruchottes from MG last year. It did not underwhelm. It was pretty fantastic.
Rousseau CSJ is clearly better than their charmes, cdlr or Mazis, wouldn’t you agree?
Exactly why should I want any premier cru upgraded to Grand Cru? It will only make prices go up. Explain to me why that is good for me.
I don’t really care about Cros Parantoux and Les Amoureuses - that ship has sailed. But, there still are a lot of relative values in Meursault Perrieres, Volnay Cailleret and Clos de Chenes and GC Combottes, to name a few examples, where prices would go up significantly if the vineyards were upgraded. Why do people constantly want this to happen?
If the threshold for upgrading a 1er cru to grand cru is that everyone around a table had to agree, I’m not sure there would be any grand crus at all, let alone any upgrades.
Isn’t the point of the classification to be a hierarchy of terroir? The best sites should be Grand Cru.
You want the classification to be purposefully misleading so that you can get cheaper wine?
Because it’ll increase the value of the wine they already own.