I can’t (and won’t) attempt to explain it. More just me relaying what I was told from the horse’s mouth. I haven’t been a buyer of older Jadot and I drink mine young for the many reasons that we’ve seen over the years.
Great post, Don. I alluded to this somewhere in the PremCru thread, but my most recent interaction with someone representing Jadot in my market would need to add another stage - “That was a long time ago, get over it!”
As someone who has pretty critical of Jadot’s PremOx problem, and kind of pest in my market about it, I’m apparently not someone they want to see, and so when they were bringing barrel samples around in my market, they tried to drop by where I work retail when I wasn’t there. My schedule that day changed, and I was there after all, and I got into a very heated discussion with a Kobrand representative who basically said the above quote.
This was a bit of an improvement, since from about 2007 onwards, when I really became aware of how troubled the Jadot white wines were (including Corton Charlemagnes from my personal collection and at a restaurant that was unaware of the issues), there has basically been a stone wall put up whenever I broached the topic with anyone representing the wines. The progression from “What problem?” to “There’s no problem any more” has been something to behold. Perhaps, as Keith’s experience suggests, that’s not an official company line, but it has been and still is galling.
Great post Don,
having watched a number of mobile bottling plants in the back streets of Burgundy, I do think Dissolved Oxygen (DO) levels also play a part, and also accounts for the randomness of the curse. Screw caps would not be the magic bullet.
Don, Thanks for your detailed notes. I, too, always look forward to your annual reports. For what’s it’s worth, I had a beautiful bottle of '08 Lafon Meursault Charmes a few weeks ago. No signs of oxidation whatsoever. I suppose it just adds to the frustration that there is such variability between bottles, and count myself lucky to have had a non-oxidized bottle. An '08 Leflaive P-M Clavoillon mag opened Saturday was completely shot. I’ll be interested to see your stats on Leflaive at dinners 2 and 3.
Jim:
Thanks. I had forgotten to include Bonneau du Martray in the list of the people in denial. I’ve had a couple of memorable conversations with Jean-Charles over the years where he was in complete denial of any problems… He also literally went ballistic when a good friend of mine visited the domaine a few years ago and began asking some questions that he had gotten from me before leaving on the trip. Jean-Charles literally refused to answer any of this questions and the visit was fairly quickly terminated. The well known local burgundy person that my friend had hired to act as his guide and obtain access to various burgundy domaines for visitation and tasting purposes told my friend in no uncertain terms that burgundians do not want to hear any questions about premox from people visiting and that if he asked any more questions about premox that would be the end of his domaine visits.
My all time favorite “moment of denial” was a dinner in Los Angeles on March 10, 2010. Many of the burgundy winemakers were in town before the Paulee with their importer Diageo. Among the producers present was Christophe Roumier, that I’ve known for about 25 years. Diageo was kind enough to invite me because of my relationship with Christophe. I attended with my good friend Michael Zadikian. We were seated at a table with Christophe, Jean-Marc Blain and Claudine Gagnard, and Pierre-Emmanuel Gelin, who had just taken over Domaine Gelin from his father. I brought along a couple of interesting Roumier wines and since I no longer had any Blain-Gagnard wines in my cellar, a bottle of 1996 Delagrange-Bachelet Montrachet made by Claudine’s father. I opened the 1996 Montrachet and when I poured the first glass I immediately realized it was oxidized based on the wafting aromas of sherry and cornflakes. I apologized to Jean-Marc and said the wine was oxidized. No, he insisted, the wine is not oxidized and he asked me to pour the wine for everyone at the table. Christophe Roumier was sitting next to me and I thought his eyes would practically pop out of his head when Jean-Marc said that. Jean-Marc insisted that the wine was just in a stage and that it would be fine when it had further time in the glass. When Christophe later said that yes the wine is oxidized, Jean-Marc took issue with him and said that it was not and that the wine would come around with time and that he had seen this many times before. Christophe just looked at me and smiled.
I have one other recent note on the 2008 Lafon Charmes.
1/30/2016 – 2008 Lafon Meursault Charmes
Mature gold color; aromas of pineapple with a light floral overtone; on the palate this had very rich pineapple, hints of blood orange and hazelnut; big-bodied wine which seemed very “wide” on the palate; good acidity becomes apparent on the backside of this wine; creamy texture; this is fully mature and already at its peak or slightly past it. I would have to say this wine is slightly advanced for 2008 Meursault 1er. 92-advanced
Don,
Thanks for these annual updates and for the wiki. Together, they have provided me a lot of info on producers to buy and not to buy.
I am more confused, however, on vintages. Do you these the differences you are getting from year to year are meaningful, or did you just have more or less Jadot, Lafon, etc., in one year than another.
Well, he was one-third right.
I have a little Blain-Gagnard Batard buried somewhere in storage. I think 07? Can’t wait to see…
Howard:
For Jadot, vintage (after 1999) doesn’t seem to make any difference – the wines are usually advanced or oxidized by age 7.5, but the 2007 Montrachet in March of 2015 was an absolutely beautiful wine. The best one I’ve had since the 1996. I don’t generally buy any Jadot whites anymore, so the number of bottles we include each year depends on how many bottles the other attendees own and whether the wines were well-regarded on release. The Jadot wines we most frequently include are the Corton Charlemagne, Chevalier Demoiselles and the Montrachet. The Meursault Perrieres is probably the next most frequently included Jadot. No one seems to own the 2008 Chevalier Demoiselles, so at the moment it appears we won’t be tasting that 2008 on night two. We will likely have a 2008 Jadot Montrachet on night three, the “Mostly Montrachet” dinner.
On Lafon, I bought Meursault Charmes and Perrieres for my cellar almost every year through 2007. I sometimes bought Genevrieres as well. So we’ve usually had at least two Lafon Meursaults in past years. We’ve also sometimes included the Lafon Montrachet in the Mostly Montrachet dinner. Starting with the 2008 vintage I limited my Lafon purchases to just one or two library bottles of the Lafon Meursaults if they are offered to me in Europe. In 2008 I owned only two bottles of Charmes. One of the attendees is bringing the 2008 Lafon Montrachet to the Mostly Montrachet dinner. I will keep my fingers crossed as that wine would be hugely expensive dud.
We will even have a 2008 Blain-Gagnard Montrachet in this year’s dinner. I try to remind myself that the 2002 Blain-Gagnard Montrachet was the wine of the night in that year’s Mostly Montrachet dinner.
This was a rough vintage to get through. It was super tasty and these wines will live for a long time. The wines were so powerful and ripe (not in a bad way) with a ton of acidity. It just coated the mouth. By the time we got to the CC flight (which was a monster flight as well flavor wise) I couldn’t pick out many of the nuances. Can only get smacked in the palate so many times. I vote for voting by flight instead of the whole night for at least this vintage. (still wait to reveal until the end).
The 08 roulot perrieres was interesting to me. I had the wine a couple of months ago and it was a behemoth of a wine but this version was so much more subdued. Even over the course of the next 3 hours it never really grew to the vintage. It was elegant and fine but didn’t reach the heights of the 07/10 (at least this bottle didn’t)
Don , I am not sure I understood your quote about Domaine Leflaive correctly , but Leflaive premox issues started well before 2007 and are still continuing . ( recently , from memory : 2002 Pucelles : 50 % oxidized , Montrachet 2005 oxidized ) . And in 2008 , it continues ( 2 oxidized Chevalier Montrachet’s 2008 ) .
They are certainly still in phase 1 or 2 , amazing . But I heard the new manager at least is interested in hearing about it ( Anne-Claude absolutely not ) .
Regarding your " denial dinner ", I had a similar experience . When I told a good friend wine-maker that his 2005’s were oxidizing , he got very angry and told me I did not understand wine . The wines were actually in a reductive phase and blablabla . Very disappointing and more or less , the end of a friendship .
Sounds a bit like like LeMoine Herwig.
He also refuses to believe his wines are oxidized, even though most of his '02’s, '04’s and '05 Whites are complete sherry…
Herwig:
I was only only focusing on Leflaive prior to 2007. I’ve not had any oxidized Domaine Leflaive 2002s or 2005s to date, and I’ve drunk a good number of the grand crus from both vintages. I also hadn’t really heard any reports from friends about those vintages having problems until your post. (I’ve never tasted Leflaive Montrachet at all. I can’t imagine how pissed I would be to be drinking the world’s most outrageously expensive Montrachet and find it oxidized.)
I have gotten all sorts of reports from people about the 2008 Leflaives – several reports from friends here (some of whom you know) who have encountered oxidized 2008 Leflaive grand crus. (I haven’t opened any bottles myself yet.) But I’ve also gotten reports from other friends who opened bottles to try after having heard negative reports from others, who reported that they found the wines pristine and beautiful. Regardless of how the three Leflaive bottles on Feb. 25 turn out, I’ve clearly heard enough credible reports about very advanced or oxidized 2008 Leflaive wines to know that yes, there is once again a notable problem with oxidation in the 2008 vintage for Domaine Leflaive. Sadly, it seems increasingly clear that Eric Remy made some substantial changes in the wine-making process when he took over the winemaking at Leflaive with the 2007 vintage.
The ongoing premox problems, combined with the very aggressive price increases taken by Leflaive in the past few years, have definitely affected my purchasing behavior as well as my local collector friends as well. In my case, after years of buying 12 to 24 bottles of Leflaive grand crus every year, I bought one bottle of 2012 Leflaive Chevalier, one bottle of 2013 Chevalier and 3 bottles of 2014 Chevalier (the latter because it was only offered in three packs) – and nothing else. Our mutual friend Michael, who used to buy large quantities of Leflaive every year, hasn’t bought a single bottle since the 2011 vintage and he told me he won’t buy any more Leflaive until he sees evidence of at least five consecutive years of problem-free performance.
So, I suspect that the new manager at Domaine Leflaive had better be prepared to not only discuss the premox problem openly but also to announce very clear corrective steps that have been taken, or he may very well find the market for new vintages of Domaine Leflaive at the existing prices asked will collapse.
I think you and I probably had a similar conversation with the same wine-maker you refer to, but mine to took place by email when he took exception with my labeling some of his wines as oxidized in a prior premox dinner.
Yes , it’s unfortunate …
I also almost completely stopped buying Leflaive and even sold of all my stock , except the 2004’s . The first Chevalier 08 I had was fantastic , the subsequent 2 bottles from the same case oxidized . I now buy 1 bottle Chevalier every year , I used to buy 2 cases+ of assorted Leflaives .
And , btw , I am going to open a few Dauvissat’s from my cellar to check out how they are doing . Premox reports are alarming from this top producer as well ( 07…)
Herwig, please report back about the Dauvissat bottles. I am very concerned. We have seen a lot of problem with other, perhaps lesser Chablis producers in recent vintages. Piuze, Pattes Loup, Brocard and others
I thought naively that Dauvissat was a somehow safe haven 
My last Clos 2005 from Dauvissat was oxidized , I’m having 2 other bottles tonight .
But I’ll trade in all my bottles for your very artistic lady , Claus .
Don,
Thanks to you for all your efforts to throw some light on this frustrating conundrum. And thanks to the other convives for sharing some insights as well.
Very glad to hear that Raveneau showed well and free from premox.
I’ve had no luck trying to discuss this issue with the trade. Prices seem to be holding up as well so there seems to be no consequences to those who have a high incidence of premox.
#16 [2008 Colin-Morey Meursault Genevrieres Hospice de Beaune Cuvee Baudots]
Medium gold color; aromas of lemon oil and minerals that you could smell; very intense citrus and pear flavors with very bright acidity and a long sweet fruit finish with plenty of acidity and minerality. A very tightly compacted Meursault. Group Rank: 1st place, 55 points (9/1/2/0/0). 95
We had a spectacular bottle of this last summer as well.
• Mikulski – We’ve now had three bottles at three different dinners (two from the 2005 vintage). All three bottles had verified provenance and had shipped directly from the Domaine within a few months of the dinners. All three were premox disasters. I ironically included Mikulski at the recommendation of an English Master of Wine who highly recommended that we include some Mikulski Meursault 1ers in this dinner series and said he’d never encountered a premoxed bottle from Mikulski. So far, having had four bottles, I’ve yet to encounter one that wasn’t either advanced or oxidized.
Never had this producer….but now I’m intrigued to taste their Genevrieres in a few weeks at the verts during La Paulee….they will be pouring the 2010,09,99!
hope they all aren’t advanced. ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
Francois Mikulski interned at Calera in 1983.