So I’m late to the Bernard Moreau party but I was so blown away by the 2011 Chevalier-Montrachet at Don’s 2011 Vintage Assessment dinner last year that I started to buy as many as I could find. It was my favorite wine of the night in the single blind format.
My enthusiasm was tempered by an advanced 2007 Chenevottes from a restaurant with a famously cool and reliable cellar. This coupled with a recent report from Charles Fu Esq. of an advanced 2011 Chevalier Montrachet made me dial back my purchases.
2011 Dauvissat has been terrible to me. Probably >25% premix rate. Haven’t had issues with really any other vintage. Mostly Forest, but have had a bottle or two of Clos that were really advanced. From two different sources so I wonder if it is vintage more than anything else? Seems like other folks have had bad luck with 2011…
2016 Dauvissat Petit Chablis. Way better than what I was accustomed to in Petit Chablis (although maybe it should be at $65 a bottle). Clearly a quality white Burg, but I have to say I still do not recognize it clearly as a classic (Kimmeridgian) Chablis, since it is missing that crisp, briney (OK, oyster shell) character I associate with those. I doubt I would have identified this as a Chablis blind, would have said a mid-level white Burg. Well, next time need to put it directly up against the Kimmeridgian…
And the Dauvissat Chablis village? Is it any good? I getevery year 2 btles village, 1 1er cru and 1 grand cru from my wine merchant (small shop), the shopkeeper chooses and I get what I am told … Drinking windows for each level: what would you recommend?
Just adding a comment here: It is often a stated fact, but - especially with Dauvissat, I experience that Magnums, even from the “worst” premox issued vintages from the estate, have been holding up spectacularly well compared to 0,75L sized bottles. My reason for stating this, is that I’ve been lucky enough to taste about 50 different magnums from Dauvissat from the period 1990-2013 over the last ten years, checking my books, only one have shown overtly advanced elements. While the same sample-ratio with 0,75L bottles have shown higher level of qualitative variation. But, to further confirm your position, visiting him last summer, I was happy to discover day old bottles of “suspect” vintages in his cellar, holding up extremely fresh and vivid when tasting through them. and the 18’s was quite spectacular from barrel. Will e a joy to follow over the next decade.
With kind regards,
Alexander
Ps. I am in the business, and I am working with Dauvissat wines.
I’ve only had problematic bottles from Dauvissat from 2008 to 2014 (haven’t opened any younger ones). I also discussed this with several sommeliers and wine friends. If the problem would be worsened by transport than this should not be the sole cause as I’ve had 2008 Clos in 2016 in Beaune from a reputed restaurant and the sommelier told me all his 2008 had a similar problem. We opened a 2014 instead which was really fabulous.
Thank you for the input, Alexander, but the fact is for most of the rest of us around the world, the wines have had a problem from 2008 on. This includes us in the US, and others in Europe (eg Belgium). I have bought since 1990, and intensively from 2002 on. I’ve not a had a problem until suddenly in 2008 (a few 2007’s, but mostly OK). I have always bought from the same distribution channels (bought straight from my retailer and straight into a temp controlled cellar). It is pretty clear that the problem is not transport/exposure, etc. It’s a change with the wine, the winemaking, or the closure. I’ve tried to find out more, but have been unsuccessful. Perhaps you, who work with Vincent, can find out more. The wines that stay at the estate seem to be the last to premox, as they are likely exposed to less oxidative stress, but what gets sent out to the world is the true measure.
I am more in line with Williams opinion related to Malolactic instability, it is a quite different way of behaviour with Dauvissat wines compared to others, so therefore I am open for other “problems”. Just because bottles that have not travelled far/not travelled at all have impeccable qualities.
Personally I have had problematic bottles from vintages before 08, - e.g. 00 and 01.
It’s an interesting discussion. Herwig in Belgium has had significant premox, and that doesn’t seem very far away from France to me. And all of my premoxed Dauvissat bottles taste exactly like the premox in Leflaive, Colin-Deleger, and any number of other premoxed burgs we’ve all experienced. I wonder what the flavor profiles of a wine with malolactic instability would be? I would actually be interested to know, if anyone could describe those wines for us.
I don’t doubt the pristine wines you and William have had in France, but for those of us elsewhere, the wines aren’t holding up like they used to. Again I would wonder what changes have been made at the estate that could possibly account for this.
Hi John,
Can we attempt to define what you mean by oxidative stress? - Clearly over time, a cork allows oxygen transport, but over a short period (in the life of most VDs wines) of transport the inside of the bottle should be homogenous - the contents will clearly be mobile - so well mixed - whether in a boat or a truck, unlike those in the cellar of origin - but what do you perceive as the ‘oxidative stress?’
Temperature stress I understand - I unwittingly made this experiment myself over the last couple of years - and the warmer stored wines were all prematurely aged and quite uninteresting versus those kept in the cellar
Bill–“oxidative stress” is probably a bit of a sloppy term, but to me it sort of summarizes a concept. I think of every bottle of wine as having a certain capacity to deal with oxygen before it becomes noticeably oxidized to our palates. this varies per bottle depending upon a number of factors (like amount of sulfur used, things like glutathione, various wine making decisions and practices, and whole bunch of other stuff, most of which I don’t really understand). when the “buffering capacity” (sorry, this is also a bit sloppy) of that bottle is exceeded, then the wine becomes premoxed.
I think wines that travel are exposed to more oxidative stress, primarily because of strain on the closure (most often cork). no matter how careful you are, there are temperature changes when a bottle goes from the cellar, to being stacked outside on the crush pad for pick-up, to riding in a truck to the warehouse, then to the dock, then a ship, then another warehouse, then another truck, etc. and what about the pressure changes if a wine has been air transported? all of this puts strain on the closure, and the weak link is the variability in cork quality/permeability, or defects (which I think we all suspect is why some bottles in a case end up premixed, and others do not.)
There might be other ways that transport could affect a wine (vibration, heat damage, etc) but I don’t think these result in an oxidized wine.
My notion was that even a little malolactic activity in bottle might burn up the wines’ free sulfur and make them more susceptible to oxidation… But it would be interesting to have a chemist’s perspective on that.
Last night, with a friend who buys direct from the domaine, I drank a pristine 2005 Forets - it was everything a great bottle of Dauvissat should be. But I continue to be very lucky with Dauvissat: a week before, a friend of mine from Norway had a premoxed 1999 Preuses.
I was due to visit on the 23rd and planned to take the opportunity to discuss such matters, but that will have to wait now.
I can see how William’s notion of continued malolactic activity could affect things, just don’t clearly see why relatively short distance transport (e.g., to Belgium) would affect that.
Otherwise, leaving outright heat damage aside (how hot does it get in Belgium?), I would think it is more as John describes it, some form on stress on the closure. Whether very mild temperature excursions (that don’t actually “heat damage” the wine), or vibration. As discussed in the literature, some or even much of the oxidation may occur early as a result of O2 trapped initially in the cork. Normally the thought is that this is driven into the wine when the closure is put into place (squeezing the pores of the cork), but perhaps this is a more delicate process than we think.
The other issue is what the failure by year really is. If just 2008, I don’t see how to easily blame this on truck transport, or the like. Seems more likely to be some more complex chemistry issue. I have had recent bottles of 2002 Dauvissat that were excellent, and a 2007 Dauvissat Clos that was aging very slowly and gracefully.
Thanks for everyone’s input here. It will interesting to see if Vincent has any input here when folks are finally able to visit again. One of the interesting things for me here is that for me this problem showed up so late on the premox spectrum–most producers were struggling with this 8-10 years earlier in terms of white burgundy, and even in Chablis (eg Fevre). why is it not appearing until 2008 with Dauvissat (at least for me)?
96 and 08 are the two years with which I’ve had the most premox, yet also the years where, when drinking them in France and more particularly Chablis and in Beaune, I have never had an oxidized bottle. Given that they were both years with very high malic acid levels, and that I know that analytically neither completed malolactic fermentation, you’ll see the train of my reasoning alluded to earlier in the thread!
Wow, a little surprised you still have so many of the 1996. The 96 was drinking beautifully a few years ago, although perhaps not yet tertiary. Tanzer tasted this within the last year, and after reading his notes, I could not help wondering if that bottling was starting to move past its prime (but there are my own prejudices creeping in).
It’s no where near past its prime from the cellar of Hostellerie des Clos in Chablis, but it might well be anywhere else. At the end of the day, the 1997 is a safer bet.
I had my one bottle in 2008 as I recall, in Auxerre not far from Chablis. Then it was just starting to turn secondary, with distinct white flower and honey character starting to show. Another prominent taster from the Bay Area had it 4-5 years ago and went off his gourd over it. So perhaps I was just trying to understand or rationalize why Tanzer underrated the wine…