A Discussion of Rose Champagne: Benchmark Vintage and N/V's?

[Dan.Gord0n]

@Brad Baker

Dan,

I would recommend the 02 Clos des Goisses Rose. While the 99 and 00 may be a letdown to some folks based on the price and hype, the 02 is a clear winner across the board. The white 02 Clos des Goisses is stunning too.

As for the 1522, the 2002 Rose is the best to date though the 2000 and 2003 were both good too. It can be hard to find in the US. The white 1522 is easier to track down and also very good. An overlooked label.

Brad- is the 02 Clos des Goisses for sale yet? On W-S all I see available is the Rose…will definitely look for the 02 if it hits at a decent price. Just not sure I’ll find the 02 Rose worth the $350+/- … rather end up with 2+ bottles of the regular.

What are good prices for the 1522 reg and Rose? Looks like only one source in the US for either (the Rose) at $135.

[Brad_Baker]

Dan,

The 01 and 02 Clos des Goisses should be out shortly. The plan was for a late summer/early fall release of both.

The 1522 should be in the $80-$110 range for the white and Rose; less if you get them in Europe.

I agree that $350 is a tough price especially as it can prevent loading up. Still, I think it is worth at least a couple bottles or so.

[Paul_Seah]

@DavidSawyer

I’ve enjoyed a few good bottles of Veuve Clicquot vintage rose. The 1985 Rare was very complex. I also enjoyed the 2000.

'96 Dom rose that I had recently was just flat out unbelievable but is painfully young (at least out of magnum).

For a cheap bottle of rose bubbles, I always enjoy Gloria-Ferrer BnN which is more like a rose than BdN. About $17.

+1 on the 1985 Cuvee Rare - a brilliant wine.

[paul_hanna]

Thought I’d revisit this thread, since I have had a few good Roses recently, and plan on a few more in the next few days…


I put on the '96 and '98 Dom Rose at our last “Monthly Dinner” 2 weeks ago, and they were both brilliant, albiet in slightly different ways (vintage difference, the house style was very much in evidence). A surprise to many perhaps at how good they both showed, and this reaffirmed to me that these are right up the top of the Rose tree…


Notes can be found here…

https://wineimport.discoursehosting.net/t/getting-corton-some-tricky-options/53647/1


My shipment of Vilmart’s arrived recently ('02 Couer de Cuvee…mmmmm), along with this was a case of the Cuvee Rubis, so one of these will also go in the next day or so…

Also picked up some of the excellent Andre Clouet Brut Rose, so that will then be next, along with a 4 years old (from my cellar) bottle of Ruinart Brut Rose…(interesting to see how this has evolved…)


Was also thinking of a Cristal Rose '88 for NYE, but as were traveling to NZ, thought it might be best left for something younger that might perhaps travel better. Another time then…

All in all, looks like a very merry Rose Xmas for me!!


Slight drift…what do people think of Roses that have red added Vs those pressed on the skins as far as aging potential and evolution goes???.

[Cris_Whetstone]

I haven’t had enough vintage wines to really judge them. For NV Camilles Saves is an easy winner though it is far to pretty and elegant to be categorized as ‘fruit driven’ IMO. Vilmart and Paul Bara are close seconds.

[loren.grossman]

@Mike de Lange

For my palate -admittedly still somewhat limited in this area- Cédric Bouchard’s “Creux d’Enfer” is the most amazing rosé I’ve ever come across.

+1

[dave_kammerer]

NV J. Lassalle Premier Cru Brut Rose is one of my favorites and it is reasonable from WINEX. Better than the NV Ruinart Rose IMHO.

[paul_hanna]

The problem I have found with some of the smaller grower Roses is that they can be very hard to find…anyway, a couple more I will add to the list to keep my eyes out for…thanks!

[Nick_Gangas]

Is there a consensus on which is the best rose from 2002 ?

[Brad_Baker]

@Nick Gangas

Is there a consensus on which is the best rose from 2002 ?

Nick,

Not all the 2002 Roses are out yet, but, of those that have been released, my current top five are (in order):

1. Vilmart Grand Cellier Rubis
2. Taittinger Comtes de Champagne Rose
3. Philipponnat Clos des Goisses Juste Rose
4. Bollinger Grande Annee Rose
5. Louis Roederer Cristal Rose
   
   
   All of the above are very special wines and all have drank well since release; not saying they are peaking, but you don’t need to be afraid of opening one now if you have multiples.

[Berry_Crawford]

I don’t have much experience but the best rose Champagne Ive had is the MV Krug. I really loved it. Super expensive though.

[paul_hanna]

Just opened the Vilmart Cuvee Rubis for Christmas Eve as part of our bubbly beginnings.


A lovely fine floral/strawberry fruited champagne that is easy to like. Great value, and will improve with more time. Wish I had now bought some of the '02 Vintage Rubis as well…

The '02 Bollinger Grande Annee Rose is another one I will also be adding to the list of must buys…

[paul_hanna]

@Berry Crawford

I don’t have much experience but the best rose Champagne Ive had is the MV Krug. I really loved it. Super expensive though.

Thanks Berry.

I also really want to try this, but can’t get my head around it at the price…I guess this shows what a difference having a vintage year Vs a NV seems to makes psychologically…

[Nick_Gangas]

@Brad Baker

@Nick Gangas

Is there a consensus on which is the best rose from 2002 ?

Nick,

Not all the 2002 Roses are out yet, but, of those that have been released, my current top five are (in order):

1. Vilmart Grand Cellier Rubis
2. Taittinger Comtes de Champagne Rose
3. Philipponnat Clos des Goisses Juste Rose
4. Bollinger Grande Annee Rose
5. Louis Roederer Cristal Rose
   
   
   All of the above are very special wines and all have drank well since release; not saying they are peaking, but you don’t need to be afraid of opening one now if you have multiples.

Thanks Brad. Where do you think the 02 DP Rose will fit in this list ?

[Rasoul_Salehi]

@Brad Baker

To me there are various Rose Champagnes that I consider benchmarks in their categories. I’ve tried to take a high level approach below by categorizing what I think are some of the leading efforts in their respective styles below (knowing some will argue with my generalizatons/categorizations).

To me, a benchmark is a wine that has been around for a while and has a track record. For this reason, I have left out numerous excellent Roses that have come on to the scene in the last decade, haven’t been released more than a handful of times so far, or have “upped their game” in the last decade. Over the next five to ten years, I expect this list will change.


Fruit Driven:

• Henri Billiot NV
• Ruinart NV
• Camile Saves NV
• Rene Geoffroy Rose de Saignee NV (almost always from one year)

Bigger Styled – Fruity, Spicy, and/or Meaty:

• Vilmart NV
• Paul Bara NV
• Jean Laurent NV

Well Balanced - in Terms of Fruit, Spice, Minerality, and Richness:

• Billecart-Salmon NV
• Perrier-Jouet Blason NV
• Deutz Cuvee William Deutz Vintage
• Billecart Salmon Cuvee Elisabeth Salmon Vintage
• Pol Roger Vintage
• Veuve Clicquot Vintage
• Drappier Grande Sendree Vintage

Vinous and Unique:

• Larmandier-Bernier NV (almost always from one year)

Best Roses Produced:

• Cristal Rose Vintage – always well balanced and drinks well young and with age
• Taittinger Comtes Vintage – more fruit driven in style and drinks well young and with age
• Dom Perignon Vintage – well balanced and shows its best with age
• Ruinart Dom Ruinart Vintage – well balanced and shows its best with age
• Vilmart Grand Cellier Rubis Vintage – bigger in style and drinks well young and with some age

For a couple non-Champagne bargains, Parigot’s Rose and Gloria Ferrer’s Blanc de Noirs (more a Rose than a Blanc de Noirs to me) set the bar.

*Edited to change spelling of “seen” to the correct “scene”

listen to Brad. man knows his acid. larmandier bernier rose de saignee, WITH bottle age is remarkable. unique and very masculine. hint of tannins. when young is pretty brutal, i don’t recommend trying without at least 3-5 years of bottle age.

personally i like the balanced style as brad suggested, for me though pol roger is pretty awesome and of course so is billet salmon. neither one ever disappoints.

also i thought i would never ever say this but gloria ferrer’s bdn delivers the goods for sure.

[Brad_Baker]

@Nick Gangas

Thanks Brad. Where do you think the 02 DP Rose will fit in this list ?

Not sure yet. The expectations are high and 2002 is a great vintage for Pinot Noir and many Roses really excelled in this vintage. We’ll have to wait and see, but I would not be surprised to see it rank right up there with the best.

[alan_weinberg]

amazing price for Billiot NV Rosé at Saratoga Wine Exchange right now . . . $40.63 per b case price.
no affiliation . . . yada yada yada. But I did place an order.
alan

[paul_hanna]

@alan weinberg

amazing price for Billiot NV Rosé at Saratoga Wine Exchange right now . . . $40.63 per b case price.
no affiliation . . . yada yada yada. But I did place an order.
alan

Yeah, I like this one also, although the last bottle I had (in SF last year) showed it really needed more time yet.

I’ll be on the look out for the '02 Dom when it’s released (still a few years away??).

[paul_hanna]

Something I asked before but got no response to, so if anyone has any opinions or ideas, please feel free to answer…

What do people think of Roses that have red added to the Champagne Vs those pressed on the skins as far as aging potential and evolution goes???


Guess I am also asking for some discussion on the differences these make to the Champagnes stylistically, both long term and short term…

TIA…

[Brad_Baker]

Paul,

The answer to your question is something that I believe is more of a personal preference for a winemaker than anything else. The two basic styles of Rose Champagne are:

• You make some red wine and add it to a base of white wine or add white wine to the base of red wine. This is the Assemblage Method
• You macerate red grapes or co-macerate red and white grapes. This would be the Maceration Method and I include a traditional Saignee as a subcategory of Maceration.

I will note that for the Assemblage Method, it really doesn’t matter if you make a true red wine and a little bit of it to white wine or if you make a nice Rose de Saignee that represents 99% of the blend and then add 1% of white wine. Both cases are Assemblage.

With both methods, you can create fruity, meaty, light, dark, tannic, mineral, deep, smoky, etc… Roses. It depends on how you use them. When a particular winemaker uses each method, I think there is a clear difference and you can tell which they do better with (or at least believe in more and put more effort into). That said, in a blind environment with Roses from a variety of producers, it is almost impossible to consistently tell the difference. I’m sure others will tell you differently and depending on which winemaker you talk to, they will list numerous reasons as to why one way is preferable or better than the another, but I think all of this disagreement proves the point more than anything else.

About the only concrete thing I can say about the Assemblage vs. Maceration is that you can get more consistency from year to year and less surprises with an Assemblage as you can always adjust as needed; with a Maceration, you kind of get what you get.