Robert,
Thank you! I now remember reading this many years ago. I just could not remember who said it.
Bob
I’m puzzling over my cooling using the Kenmore approach, including a resistor. I’ve been tracking the temperatures (air and liquid), and both go down in the night and back up the next day, with about a 2 degree fluctuation. That seems intuitive–it’s cooler at night! But this is in the basement of an air conditioned house, and in fact the basement temperature increases slightly at night because the first floor A/C zone is set to a higher temperature from about midnight to 6a.
Clearly the two are related–as the exterior temperature increases the interior (wine cellar) temperature decrease. But why? Is it simply that the unit is running slightly more often? That alone doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Is it possible that the outside heat is transferring through the A/C unit to hit the temperature sensor, and make it think the temperature is higher than it is? Should I pull the sensor out from inside the filter/grill and put it more inside the cellar?
On a related question: Has anyone tried using one of the relatively inexpensive split systems such as those made my Toshiba, Mitsubshi, Frederich and a host of others? I assume the same principle would work vis a vis tricking the thermostat to make it run at cooler temperatures. It appears the smallest units are about 3/4 ton. Is that absurdly large for a small 64 sq ft cellar?
As trollish as Paul G is, he is also God of the Kenmore Nation and (in this respect) my leader! I’ve been using his set-up for years without problems (although I am afraid my 1st throw-away Kenmore may be reaching throw-away age; some icing issues this past beastly summer). Some issues dispelled:
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The temp in my cellar is ridiculously constant, measured at the floor and the ceiling.
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Vibration? The thing is mounted into a wall that is (a) brick on the outside; (b) 1/2 buried in the dirt (it is in a walk-out basement); and (c) not connected to the racking. Oh, and the floor is poured concrete. To the extent the a/c vibrates, it has NO impact on the wine at all.
I have (had) much less confidence in the cooling unit of my wine closet, which I eventually turned off altogether. Those things are preposterously expensive and do precisely the same work a $250 Kenmore does. The only conceivable reason I can see for buying a split or other “wine-specific” cooling unit is to make a cellar look pretty, but as I said, this is in a basement that is otherwise full of all the crap we never use but can’t seem to bring ourselves to throw away.
If I searched well, that’s ~9000BTU. The smallest Kenmore or similar is about 5000 or 6000 BTU, and the next size up is usually about 8500 BTU, so it’s not wildly oversized.
I did what the OP suggested after I figured out that the Breezire couldn’t be repaired without drilling out the rivets (that’s right, it’s deliberately made so that you cannot disassemble it… ) etc. So… my cabinet is now cooled by a $99 GE window AC unit. With no modifcations at all it kept the temp at 66 yesterday when the outside air was 90. I’ll mod it to go lower, but that’s not bad for an off the shelf $99 unit and I’m comfortable with the wine at 66 for a couple of days.
AC units like this have another very real advantage over wine-specific units. Let’s say your wine compressor unit dies in the middle of the summer heat. I’m betting you don’t have a store that sells a replacement near you. I know I don’t. An AC unit? I drive 5 miles to Home Depot and get a new one. Hell, if I’m worried that they’ll discontinue the model I have and new ones won’t fit the opening I can buy two or even three and have backups. Lessee… two AC units that work fine for $200 and give me redundancy… or $1000 for a unit that might die in a few years. Hm…
I had to replace my 5,200 BTU Kenmore earlier this year. The new model is more energy efficient than the old one. The fan turns on for about ten seconds at approx ten minute intervals and checks the air temperature. If the air temp is too high the compressor turns on…so in my case the compressor only turns on every half hour or so. I think this new control system also solves the short cycling issue, the compressor runs only when needed.
! too gained a couple of degrees by detaching the unit’s temp probe and pulling it thru the grille. I tied it to the electric supply cord such that the tip of the probe is about 4" below the unit. I also adjusted the cold air oulet vents on the unit so they direct the cold air upwards and to the sides away from the unit. The cellar is 58° at the floor and 59° at the ceiling.
There are no vibration issues with the Kenmore.
Due to space restrictions, I built a cellar that is about 1 bottle deep, 8 feet wide and fronted by french doors. I switched to a $100 Frigidaire air conditioner about a year ago and I am very happy with it. Previously, I was using a Koolspace AC which seemed to need replacing every 3 -5 years.
As a variation to the thermostat tricking methods mentioned above, I took my unit apart and hard wired the thermostat so the unit cools constantly (This procedure is simple for my unit and takes about 10 minutes). Then I hooked the AC into an external line thermostat on the other side of the wine closet. So the unit does not run constantly and it does not seem to cycle too frequently.
Not directly related to the OP, but I just replaced my 3 yr old 6000 btu Kenmore unit with a 6000 btu Frigidaire for $169 - it was starting to fail, icing up regularly and not cooling the room. Within 3 hours the cellar was down from 67 to 60 degrees (which is the lowest setting on the a/c), which the Kenmore couldn’t do (never below 61) and is good enough for me.
And I now own that exact unit and controller and can attest to its usefulness. if you are gonna get a used wine cabinet, best to get one from an engineer… ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Mike, is this like the one you use? They don’t show a Johnson Controls one
Not Mike, but here’s a JC unit:
http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Controls-Digital-Thermostat-Control/dp/B00368D6JA/ref=pd_cp_hi_0
Thanks not-Mike
Yes that is the unit, works well.
While you are at it go full wine nerd and add a Lacrosse Alerts unit for temp and humidity.
Full disclosure: I am one of the owners of CellarPro Cooling Systems.
That said, I thought the following notes, which we published on our blog and originated from our engineering team, would be interesting given the nature of this thread. If you have any questions or would like clarification, I’ll be happy to get answers and post them here. We have no quarrels with Kenmore!
Btw the difference in price between our units and the 5000+ BTU units made by Kenmore et al is due to volume and manufacturing location. We produce thousands of units annually, whereas the big guys produce millions of units annually. Moreover, our units are manufactured in northern California (go Giants!), whereas the big guys make their units in China.
There are two types of systems used for wine cellars: conventional refrigeration systems and HVAC systems. Whereas conventional systems are designed to maintain proper temperature AND humidity conditions, A/C systems are designed for human comfort, and therefore are not designed to maintain ideal humidity levels for proper wine storage and aging.
Conventional refrigeration systems, like those made by CellarPro Cooling Systems, are specifically designed for wine storage applications. Conventional systems use condensing units with single-speed compressors and thermostatic expansion valves that are located in the evaporators, and are designed specifically for use in wine cellars and wine storage applications.
In contrast, home air conditioning systems use variable-speed compressors and electronic expansion valves that are located in the condensing units. The catalog design limit for most A/C equipment is 67°F DB, which is significantly higher than the optimal wine storage conditions of 55°F DB. In most cases, A/C controllers cannot be set below 60°F, and therefore must be rewired and retrofitted to achieve desired wine storage temperatures. Under these circumstances, the manufacturer’s warranty may become void. Moreover, after A/C systems are retrofitted, the coil temperatures necessarily will operate below the manufacturer’s recommended minimum temperatures, and therefore will reduce coil temperatures below the cellar dew point. This is likely to result in frosted conditions, thereby extracting moisture from the room and reducing the cellar’s humidity below ideal levels.
And I have no beef with CellarPro or any other wine cooler. (other from the fact that the one’s I had previously were unreliable with a limited life)
I had two specialty wine coolers at the beginning of my wine storage career. (made in the 70s and 80s they were likely not as good as those built nowadays).
When a Kenmore fails, it does so gradually, so one has time to get a new one to replace it. (plus they are easy to procure)
The two specialty units I had died quickly and without warning, putting my wine in jeopardy.
Again, don’t know if todays’ units give you some warning so you can get a replacement before it’s demise.
This was the main reason I tried a home AC. (and I haven’t looked back since)
Question for Ben:
You say that “after A/C systems are retrofitted, the coil temperatures necessarily will operate below the manufacturer’s recommended minimum temperatures,
and therefore will reduce coil temperatures below the cellar dew point.
This is likely to result in frosted conditions, thereby extracting moisture from the room and reducing the cellar’s humidity below ideal levels”.
How does a specialty wine cooler avoid this problem?
TTT
I don’t think that a window ac would vibrate too much to be used in a wine cabinet; the term “window rattler” is more poetic than actual. In any case, if it’s a concern it wouldn’t be very difficult to mount the cooler with adequate vibration damping.
Only problem I can think of with a modern ac is that after even a brief power outage the electronic controls on some of them default to a higher temperature setting when they restart, say 75º rather than 60º or whatever their lowest setting produces; they don’t “remember” where they’d been set before the outage. If you’re not aware that this has happened you could have a period of time with your wines warmer than you’d like.
Paul,
I forwarded your question to the our engineering department, and here’s the reply:
The critical components of cooling systems are optimized for their application and temperature ranges, and do not function properly outside of them. A/C systems are designed with a wide TD (temperature drop): the difference between the air temperature entering the coil and the temperature of fins on the coil. The TD for A/C systems is 35F, so at a 67F air entering temperature, the coil is 67-35=32F. This is done to strip out as much moisture as possible for comfort cooling without freezing the condensate on the fins. CellarPro systems are designed with a TD of 20F, and have fin design and defrost features to prevent ice from forming on the fins. This lower TD reduces the amount of moisture stripped from the air, which is desirable for wine storage. If an A/C system is used in the cellar temp range of 47F to 62F, the wide TD will result in more moisture removal and risk of freezing the coil compared to a properly designed cellar system.
If you have additional questions, let me know.