Nah, I have to disagree with that, I have had some mind bendingly good older wines.
I assure you this is not the case, unless what you are calling “deeply aged” is code for dead. I do think sometimes people are hesitant to admit when a wine is dead, and some people simply have more of an affinity for tertiary flavors, madeirization and lack for fruit than others do. And sometimes people aren’t sure enough of themselves to say when a wine has gone beyond their comfort zone. It is not such a pervasive and wide spread discomfort, though, that hundreds of people would spend millions of dollars and decades of their lives aging wine…just because they are afraid to admit they don’t like it aged? I don’t think so.
In your OP you stated that you have had this “musty” experience with all wines over 15 years of age. This is actually not deeply aged to me at all for most of the world’s great wines, which leads me to believe there’s something about mature characteristics that just smells bad to you. How about mouthfeel? There is a definite change in texture that occurs when wines age, and sometimes I experience that as a dustiness, not unpleasant to me, though it usually takes well over 15 years of age to get there.
As others have said, not every wine can age well, and not all have been given the chance to. But some can become god-like in their perfection. Have you had a perfect '21 Yquem? A perfect '47 Cheval Blanc? A perfect '64 Cristal? Neither have I, to be honest, though I once had a sub-par '64 Cristal that was still transcendent. Those who have, I’d guess, found something that moved them to the core of their soul to such an extent that they were willing (to the extent they were able) to dedicate huge sums of money and time to having that experience again. Even those of us who have only had more modest versions of this experience have thrown ourselves into that pursuit, heart, body, soul and wallet.
One big thing to remember is this -
Every wine has a different drinking window. I would be hard pressed to find a big California Zinfandel that wasn’t in it’s prime five years after release. Most top Cali cabs hit their peak at ten years (and of course there are exceptions - with maybe 1% of annual production). As others have remarked, some wines do get funky with age.
What comments are surprising are the ones where they say that older wines lose their fruit. A Left Bank Bordeaux from a top vintage should be overflowing with fruit at 15-20 years of age. I’ve had 50 year old Bordeaux that were absolute fruit bombs.
Today’s modern Bordeaux are hitting their peak earlier, so are the more modern Brunello and Barolo.
It’s ok for a fully mature wine to be eight years old. The key is being perceptive to each wine’s drinking window.
Sticking with my Leoville Barton comment, I’ve had some Leovilles (Barton, Poyferre and Las Cases) from the 1918-26 range from Bern’s that were not only alive, but some were vibrant and gorgeous. I will admit that’s the possible exception when you go to 100 or so years, having close to perfect provenance there and slightly colder than normal storage temperatures.
I’ve really liked some older wines but I think your friend is far closer to right than wrong.
Differences in wine are subtle but wine enthusiasts’ descriptions of those differences tend to be hyperbolic. There’s also a massive propensity to report favorably on wines that are rare, expensive, historical, or exclusive. Aged well known wines usually meet these criteria. Often even a mediocre performance can be met with raves. It takes some time reading and listening to people talk about wine to figure out how to calibrate their statements to your own expectations.
I had 5-6 different insignia vintages all at once, and the younger ones are showing much better than the older ones. The scores also reflect the preference so not sure if they just make better wine, or younger wine is better.
2004 Cepparello
I was one of the first people who referred to mature wines losing fruitiness. They definitely lose primary fruitiness, which is very appealing, so I understand how some people might prefer wines young.
I tend to like my “serious” wines (Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo/Barbaresco, Northern Rhone, German riesling) with a lot of age, when they gain those tertiary aromas. But I like zin young. I’ve had many old Ridge zins that have gone into that popular “claret” stage, and I find them less interesting. So I can kind of relate to the OP. I feel the same way about lots of other wines (e.g., Graillot Crozes-Hermitage).
He was referring to deeply aged as in 50+ year aged bottles. The conversation came up in the context of 1945 Chateau Mouton going for $10,000+ a bottle. My grandfather was a collector of BDX following WW2, and had (along with a ton of other wines), 3 cases of the 1945 Mouton that were given to his children upon his passing. Unfortunately, he simply kept his collection in his cellar, and the variability in temp essentially made his entire collection worthless. I can only imagine what the collection would have been worth if stored properly, but I have to imagine it would be in the millions.
With respect to your suggestion on the vertical tasting, that sounds like a wonderful idea to really explore this issue in further detail. I’ll definitely see if I can find some folks who would be interested in doing this with me. Sadly most of friends aren’t as into wine as I am, so this may need to wait until I’m able to meet up with the aforementioned family friend who is as into wine as I am.
The classic case of self-reporting that we are all smarter than ‘average’, a mathematical impossibility. ![[highfive.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/d/db21b9263a9105e51f6f8b11e61dd4de095611f9.gif "highfive"){kind=small}
And these are the wines that need shorter drinking windows. I tend to purchase heavy in Right Bank Sattelite wines for everyday drinking and mass consumption wines, and do find myself forgetting the last couple bottles of a lot purchased that start drying out after 10-12 years of age. These wines were superb at 6-8 years of age, and while they hold well for a while after they peak, they do start drying out.
For what it’s worth, I’ve discussed this with folks who are seriously into wine, and I’ve gotten several similar responses. One of these folks has a theory that aged wine is an emperor’s new clothes situation, and no one really enjoys deeply aged wine, but everyone is afraid to admit it.
Mike - as Sarah said, this is absolutely off base. I think “seriously into wine” has to be defined, but anyone who says that really doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
As others have said, different wines age differently. But all of them develop what I call a “mature wine” aroma. Old Bordeaux neither smells nor tastes like young Bordeaux. It’s a blend of grapes usually, maybe Cab, Merlot, Cab Franc, etc., and all of them have some similarities as they age.
Old Rioja, which is based on the Tempranillo grape, is utterly different. And it has a singular funky aroma, even when it’s young. That’s not “musty” but more like mushrooms.
Old Barbaresco has different aromas again.
And if you’re drinking something from California, the Cab/Merlot based wines will have distinctive qualities of old Cab/Merlot, but it’s not that common to mistake them for Bordeaux, although I have at times.
As others have pointed out, maybe you just don’t like older wines. Wine itself is kind of an acquired taste anyway, so there’s nothing wrong with that. And you may have had a few corked wines in there, i.e. wines that had some contamination. But there’s no reason you NEED to like older wine. It’s just that older wine provides something you’ll never get from younger wine, and it’s far from emperor’s new clothes. Keep exploring and good luck! ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I think most of us experienced drinkers of properly aged wines know that Mike just hasn’t yet had his epiphany wine(s)–wines properly aged, consumed in the right time frame, given an appropriate amount of air. Eventually hopefully he’ll get to experience this, and once you get it, and learn to focus on the wines you love, it’s not too hard to continue the process (although possibly expensive). If you truly just enjoy younger wine, great, then do it. For those who claim that waxing poetic about the joys of older wine is a bunch of baloney, well, I feel a bit sad for you. and perhaps you can just send me your older Burgundy, Barolo, rioja, northern rhone, chinon, brunello. Thanks.
You’re missing everything.
Wait–me? Did I miss something?
Not you John. You are the full bottle.
Mike, looking at all these wines I have to ask if the wines were decanted and the sediment was removed? I’ve found that to seriously impact the smell and taste in aged wines. Thinking about aged wines I’m thinking of times where older wines tasted younger and showed brighter fruit. Sometime about 10 years ago I opened a '66 Lascombes & '82 Les Ormes de Pez in the same night. The '66 showed much brighter fruit, and if served blind I’d have thought the '66 was the younger of the two.
If you have the ability, I’d strongly encourage you to set bottles at a 45 degree angle for 60-90 days and then decant for sediment and see if that helps…for me it’s essential if I’m going to enjoy the wines.
John - I hope you will syndicate what you receive.
Good old wines have plenty of fruit.