Ageing potential of wines with a screw cap?

[Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r]

@D@vid Bu3ker

OK Barry and Scott, what would be good enough for you? Let me guess, 50 year trials that will be over after you are dead.

I don’t mind the contrarian view, David, but the tone of your comment feels intentionally condescending, which is unproductive in any debate.

Oh. And Barry’s reply pretty much works for me.

(edited)

[Randy_Bowman]

@larry schaffer

@Randy Bowman

A customer of ours grabbed a 2008 Molly Dooker Violinist the other day just to see how it was holding up under screw cap. He said it was good and quite flavorful when he opened it and it got even better after it had a chance to “open up.” This is a high ABV Australian Verdelho. He said he didn’t notice the alcohol when he was drinking it, but did the next morning.

But Randy,

That’s an Aussie wine - no one here seems to care about their track record.

Funny thing. We have a bunch of old Aussie Shiraz and Cab in the storeroom because they didn’t sell and we weren’t drinking them. We’ve been revisiting some of them and been very pleasantly surprised, both on low and high ABV. An 03 Barossa Valley Old Vine Shiraz could have been chosen as a Rhone in a blind tasting. So I think we’ll keep “testing” those old Aussies to see how well they age.

[Daniel_H]

My avatar photo clearly shows how inconsistently wines age when sealed with cork. Screwcaps are a much better closure for all wines young or old. There is no good reason to use archaic 17th century tech when there is a better, cleaner, and more consistent modern alternative.

[R_Gilbane]

@Daniel H

My avatar photo clearly shows how inconsistently wines age when sealed with cork. Screwcaps are a much better closure for all wines young or old. There is no good reason to use archaic 17th century tech when there is a better, cleaner, and more consistent modern alternative.

My avatar clearly shows that we have much to fear from Bearataurs.

Also be wary of bears with guns surfing on the backs of sharks. Way more trouble than corks.

[Joe_G_a_l_e_w_s_k_i]

I imagine some of you have already seen this, but I found this article about Penfolds to be worth reading :

Penfolds to up focus on glass closures - The Drinks Business

[David_Bu3ker]

@Joe G a l e w s k i

I imagine some of you have already seen this, but I found this article about Penfolds to be worth reading :

Penfolds to up focus on glass closures - The Drinks Business

His main reason for not wanting to continue with screw caps has zero to do with aging though, so it’s a bit of a tangent.

[Ian_Sutton]

Certainly mixed messages from Gago. Problems with what he’s saying:

• Heat damage shows in cork-sealed wines: Only true if it’s so bad to force the cork out / seepage, but far from all heat damage is evidenced this way - and some corks are just poor/faulty and seepage happens even in ideal cellaring conditions or during initial corking.
• Ok for whites but not reds: So he’s not worried about heat damage in whites? Often these are more vulnerable to heat damage than reds
• Glass to glass seal is the way forward: So how exactly does that fit with the earlier heat damage argument?
• TCA running at the same rate as mechanical damage to screwcaps. Nothing like my experience, but perhaps he’s including bottles that leave the distribution chain well before they get to us? If so, I dislike his comparison, because on older wines, or wines bought abroad, I never return corked wines. So even at 1%, I’m swallowing that cost (plus that of faulty corks), whereas for bottles removed before they arrive at my door, it’s his company that is going to bear the cost.
• In his own words there is notable bottle variation in cork-sealed wines, such that many are removed from circulation in their re-corking program.

regards
Ian

[R_Gilbane]

Somewhat surprising to see such an unscientific arguement against screwcaps from a winemaker. I fail to see any correlation between screwcaps and heat damage. If anyone of us made that same arguememt on this thread, we’d be quickly shut down.

[DougS]

@P@u1_M3nk3s

A friend bottled his 2007 Alexander Valley Bordeaux blends in screwcap and over the last 8 years I’ve literally drunk cases them. There has been development but it’s been glacial. The bottle I opened Saturday was very fresh tasting.

Without cork finished bottles for comparison you don’t really know if this “glacial” development is because of the screwcap, though. I’m not saying I doubt that wine might develop more slowly under screwcap, but I’d expect a high quality, ageworthy blend of Bordeaux grapes from 2007 to still be very youthful under cork as well.

[Kevin_Kitagawa]

@Doug Schulman

@P@u1_M3nk3s

A friend bottled his 2007 Alexander Valley Bordeaux blends in screwcap and over the last 8 years I’ve literally drunk cases them. There has been development but it’s been glacial. The bottle I opened Saturday was very fresh tasting.

Without cork finished bottles for comparison you don’t really know if this “glacial” development is because of the screwcap, though. I’m not saying I doubt that wine might develop more slowly under screwcap, but I’d expect a high quality, ageworthy blend of Bordeaux grapes from 2007 to still be very youthful under cork as well.

I’ve had a fair number of older bottles that were under both…(oldest being 2003)

The key difference to me is, the screwcap one tends to taste “cleaner” as in they don’t carry the flavor I believe cork imparts to the wine. The one under cork to me always tastes a bit more evolved but again, that could because of the imparted flavor or the obvious freshness of the one under screwcap…The tannins have softened and screwcap wine does evolve having had the same wine when it was younger…but it does feel like the development is far slower…

Penfolds still does St. Henri under both cork and screwcap and they age forever…I don’t think there are old examples of St. Henri under screwcap though.

[larry_schaffer]

How long has St. Henri been bottled under both closures? And you are saying that they currently bottle under both? I wonder why . . .

I know historically many Aussie producers bottled under both, but the main reason was to supply the US with cork because of the perception of screw caps here.

Cheers.

[David_Bu3ker]

@R_Gilbane

Somewhat surprising to see such an unscientific argument against screwcaps from a winemaker. I fail to see any correlation between screwcaps and heat damage. If anyone of us made that same argument on this thread, we’d be quickly shut down.

That was not the argument he was making. He was saying that with a screwcap it is harder to see the effects of heat damage, because you don’t get the seepage or pushed cork.

[larry_schaffer]

David,

Yep, thanks for pointing that out. There is a greater chance of being able to see visible signs of heat damage with wines under traditional cork vs. screw cap for sure. That said, even with bottles finished under cork, unless the wine has really expanded and seeped, it is difficult to detect heat damage.

Cheers.

[P_Intag]

Is there any variability with “tightness” of screw cap closures that might affect air ingress? I’ve always wondered about this, but have never seen it mentioned on any discussions about it.

[Barry_Paul_Price]

@R_Gilbane

@Daniel H

My avatar photo clearly shows how inconsistently wines age when sealed with cork. Screwcaps are a much better closure for all wines young or old. There is no good reason to use archaic 17th century tech when there is a better, cleaner, and more consistent modern alternative.

My avatar clearly shows that we have much to fear from Bearataurs.

Also be wary of bears with guns surfing on the backs of sharks. Way more trouble than corks.

What ammo is that bear using?

How are his paws fitting inside the trigger guard? Has it been modified for bears?

What, exactly, is the bear shooting at? The wave? Something behind the wave that he can never hope to reach, like unrealized dreams? Or is it a futile demonstration of power really revealing his powerlessness?

Is this bear trained to surf longboard, or does he exclusively surf sharks?

What is the nature of his relationship with the shark? Is it his captive, allowing the bear to surf on him only because the bear has a gun?

Is the shark his partner? Is this a Bonnie and Clyde scenario? Their shared expression seems to indicate some degree of shared viewpoint.

Do sharks have enough cognitive ability to be aware of what’s actually going on up there if a bear surfs them while firing a machine gun saying ‘Say hello to my little friend?’

If not, is this an extraordinary shark, or another bear in a shark suit?

What is their end game? What do they each want in this scenario?

Who put the logo on the shark? Is he/she sole owner of the brand and company or merely wearing the logo as part of an endorsement deal?

Is the bear cut in on the endorsement deal? If not, is this contributing to his violent angst?

So many questions.

[R_Gilbane]

@Barry Paul Price

@R_Gilbane

@Daniel H

My avatar photo clearly shows how inconsistently wines age when sealed with cork. Screwcaps are a much better closure for all wines young or old. There is no good reason to use archaic 17th century tech when there is a better, cleaner, and more consistent modern alternative.

My avatar clearly shows that we have much to fear from Bearataurs.

Also be wary of bears with guns surfing on the backs of sharks. Way more trouble than corks.

What ammo is that bear using?

How are his paws fitting inside the trigger guard? Has it been modified for bears?

What, exactly, is the bear shooting at? The wave? Something behind the wave that he can never hope to reach, like unrealized dreams? Or is it a futile demonstration of power really revealing his powerlessness?

Is this bear trained to surf longboard, or does he exclusively surf sharks?

What is the nature of his relationship with the shark? Is it his captive, allowing the bear to surf on him only because the bear has a gun?

Is the shark his partner? Is this a Bonnie and Clyde scenario? Their shared expression seems to indicate some degree of shared viewpoint.

Do sharks have enough cognitive ability to be aware of what’s actually going on up there if a bear surfs them while firing a machine gun saying ‘Say hello to my little friend?’

If not, is this an extraordinary shark, or another bear in a shark suit?

What is their end game? What do they each want in this scenario?

Who put the logo on the shark? Is he/she sole owner of the brand and company or merely wearing the logo as part of an endorsement deal?

Is the bear cut in on the endorsement deal? If not, is this contributing to his violent angst?

So many questions.

Barry, I’m only going to say this once: Sir, allow me to compliment you on the cut of your jib.

[Barry_Paul_Price]

@R_Gilbane

@Barry Paul Price

What ammo is that bear using?

How are his paws fitting inside the trigger guard? Has it been modified for bears?

What, exactly, is the bear shooting at? The wave? Something behind the wave that he can never hope to reach, like unrealized dreams? Or is it a futile demonstration of power really revealing his powerlessness?

Is this bear trained to surf longboard, or does he exclusively surf sharks?

What is the nature of his relationship with the shark? Is it his captive, allowing the bear to surf on him only because the bear has a gun?

Is the shark his partner? Is this a Bonnie and Clyde scenario? Their shared expression seems to indicate some degree of shared viewpoint.

Do sharks have enough cognitive ability to be aware of what’s actually going on up there if a bear surfs them while firing a machine gun saying ‘Say hello to my little friend?’

If not, is this an extraordinary shark, or another bear in a shark suit?

What is their end game? What do they each want in this scenario?

Who put the logo on the shark? Is he/she sole owner of the brand and company or merely wearing the logo as part of an endorsement deal?

Is the bear cut in on the endorsement deal? If not, is this contributing to his violent angst?

So many questions.

Barry, I’m only going to say this once: Sir, allow me to compliment you on the cut of your jib.

Thank you. I couldn’t shark the responsibility of laying things bear.

[larry_schaffer]

@P Intag

Is there any variability with “tightness” of screw cap closures that might affect air ingress? I’ve always wondered about this, but have never seen it mentioned on any discussions about it.

If you are talking about the weight of the cap itself, my guess would be that there would be very little variability within a certain lot as these are precision machine made. There may be variability between producers though.

Where you would find more variability would be if a producer uses different Liners in their screw cap for the same bottling. This rarely ever happens, but it certainly could.

I’m not sure if that answers your questions but I hope it does.

[Cam_Wheeler]

@larry schaffer

How long has St. Henri been bottled under both closures? And you are saying that they currently bottle under both? I wonder why . . .

I know historically many Aussie producers bottled under both, but the main reason was to supply the US with cork because of the perception of screw caps here.

I’d say around 2004 (Edit: It was actually 2005) St Henri was available under both, within a couple of years either side of that anyway.

It’s a similar story for premium wine in China (preference for cork), a major market for Penfolds.

[Alan_Rath]

I think it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t proposition. I’m all in favor of screwcap, and I personally believe that wines can age beautifully. I’d much prefer that to the wide risks of cork (TCA, variable air transmission, crumbling corks, etc.). But I also have doubt that a plastic liner can go the distance over the same time frame we expect a good cork to last (upwards of 40-50 years). If there are studies that predict the viability of the plastic liner over that time frame, I’m not familiar with them. I’d love to see that.