Aging Burgundy vs. Pinot Noir

WINE TALK
21

Judging by the number of lists Scott is on, he’s going to find out how California pinot ages, whether he wants to or not. [cheers.gif]

I would say as a general rule, good California pinot ages substantially better and longer than most wine geeks realize. And by failing to realize that, they tend to drink them near release, and miss out on some of the complexity and balance that they can have as the baby fat subsides after at least a few years from release.

But of course it varies. If I were to offer a rule of thumb, I’d say that SVD pinots of the quality that Scott is buying will usually improve over 2-3 years from release, are very comfortably safe to 8 years from the vintage date with no real concerns, and most should cruise to 12 years no problem. After that, it depends more on the producer and their track record of aging, as well as Scott’s preference for what age he likes them at.

I don’t think California pinots go through a “dumb phase” or “shut down,” so it’s more of a choice for the consumer about how he prefers the wines along the aging curve.

22

Scott, I think the only way to answer some of these questions is to find some older bottles and drink them. I don’t drink that much domestic pinot, but I got interested in trying an older one and bought It some Kalin Pinot Noir from the 1990s at a decent price(I don’t know how representative this is of domestic pinot but I be able to see if I like it). My guess is that it is possible to buy other older California pinot.

It is not that hard to buy older Burgs. Envoyer has them as does Chambers Street in NY. You can find premier crus from Beaune, Savigny les Beaune, etc., around at decent prices. Envoyer recently was selling a 2001 Volnay for $30.

This is the only way you are going to be able to answer your question.

23

I feel fairly confident about the aging potential of my California pinots. Since it’s only one bottle, this is more of an anecdote than anything, but I purchased a bottle of 1985 Mount Eden Estate Pinot Noir last year on auction. I drank it last spring. It was fantastic. I’ve also tasted from a few bottles of early to mid-1990s J. Rochioli and W-S Rochioli in the past two years. In each case, someone had checked to make sure it was good before I tasted it, but in each case, I found them to be beautiful wines.

As far as whether or not they had improved over the last twenty years, I can’t say as I was still a kid when these wines were released. However, I can say two things: (1) they tasted fresh and vibrant, and (2) they tasted very different from current releases of each of those wines, which I have tasted, and I’d personally choose the aged wines almost every time.

24

IMHO the vast majority of California PN does not improve with age. People have given me 10-year old WS or 15 year old this or that at tastings and I’ve always disliked it. Even 5 years after vintage for most and I don’t like how the fruit fades. The glory of California wine is in its youth, and I’m OK with that.

25

@ Nick. Relatively new to the board so I don’t know, but do you like aged burgundy? Just wondering if its aged PN you dislike, or just the way California PN ages?

26

This is a great question. I don’t have a good answer. Reading the responses, I not sure anyone has provided the consummate answer–yet. I suspect John Morris is right , it has to do with the acidity level (plus the allure of Burgundy and the fact that many Cal/OR pinots will age longer than we think they might.)

27

This is certainly another perspective on it. You get the most plump fruit in the first few years, so it’s a personal choice whether that is more or less desirable. I tend to come down the other way, and prefer the fruit to recede a bit and let the wine show more other characteristics, but it’s just personal preference, and of course it depends from one wine to the next.

Last night, we opened a 2005 Witness Tree Hanson pinot noir from Oregon. A really nice wine, with vibrant crushed purple berry fruit, lots of mineral, and plenty of acid on the finish. I did think it seemed a bit more like a Spanish wine than an Oregon pinot in its style, but it was a very tasty wine and going strong at 9 years.

28

Mike, I think you’re taking it a little far here, and I am a lover of aged domestic PN (certain styles) and have had my best experiences with them at 10+ years from vintage. I mean, how long has Rhys been around? And Copain making their current style? not long. Are you saying the early releases of these examples are now SO much better than they were on release that opening them young was almost a waste, as many people say about Burgundies? I just don’t think we can know that yet. Yes, there are other producers with longer track records whose wines have rewarded aging greatly (to some of us), but two out of your three examples seem to be based on an educated guess rather than personal experience. Also, I don’t know if you’re implying in “equally demanding of age” that they need or can take as much age as their Burgundian counterparts, but that would be unproven at best and in most cases, I think, simply wrong.

Don’t get me wrong, I think my Copain and Rhys PN’s will improve with age, and I’ve got enough tucked away to be betting on it pretty heavily (for me), but I don’t think anyone really knows exactly what will happen over how long. Plus, a lot of the Copains show great when they’re young, so to say they are equally demanding of age is assuming a really significant improvement over what is already really nice. The same can be said for a lot of Burgundies, so I’m not saying it won’t happen, but I think we don’t know.

29

This post reflects what I was going to say, but does it with far more humor than I was going to express. [highfive.gif]

30

Doug - you are correct. The only two CA Pinots that I know aged beautifully are a Rochioli from the 80s and a pre-acquisition Chalone from the 70s - - two of the greatest Pinots I’ve ever had and the only two Californians I’ve tasted with that much age. I am projecting excellent aging potential from Copain and Rhys, although I’ve not tasted either over seven years old (but they seemed to be evolving well). Actually, that’s not correct. I had a 14-year old Trefethen a few years back that just knocked me out it was so good. Come to think of it, I’ve also had fantastic experiences with 12 year old + Dehlingers.

I would propose to you the possibility that a prime reason CA Pinot is not accorded the same esteem as Burgundy is that they are typically not allowed time to fully mature.

31

[winner.gif] [winner.gif] [winner.gif]

32

If you’re expecting your Aubert Pinot Noirs to age well you may be in for a long wait. It takes a lot of time for that much alcohol to evaporate through a cork.

33

Don’t forget Littorai. Had a 2000 PN thieriot 2 months ago that was still quite young.

To answer the OP, I’ve not come across a domestic PN that is shut down the way Burgundy can be say at 3-10 years. I’ve had some that seem a little disjointed, but not closed, same wine a few years later much better.

34

I think Hanzell, Swan Trenton and RM Summa OV are age worthy.
But if I had to choose it would be Burgundy for ageability, mainly because most of the Vines are older.

35

I’m sure there are far more Burgs with the ability to age for the very long term, like 20-50 years, than there are California pinots. Then again, most of those Burgs that age well for that long cost more than any California pinot ever made; a more fair comparison to “how long with a W-S pinot age” would be to $40-80 Burgs, not to DRC or Leroy or Grand Crus.

Anyway, I love aged wines and I love collecting bottles to hold for maturity, but I don’t know if “how good is the wine in 30 years?” is a critical part of most people’s decision in buying wine, even for wine geeks. To those for whom ageability for that period of time is critical, I think they’ll be much safer buying upper tier Burgs.

36

Calera’s single vineyard Pinots age well. I have several 97’s that I love.

37

Why do you think vine age has any affect on a wine’s ability to age?

38

Actually, I think that might be a supportable position. Many of the new-wave Pinot vineyards are quite young. IIRC, vineyards like Kiser En Haut, Alpine, etc. are less than 15 years old.

If I was to put money on a California Pinot aging really well, it would be one from Rochioli, or the oldest section of Dehlinger vines or maybe the Summa Old Block. Pisoni is a vineyard that I know to be over 30 years old. Hirsch vines (right on the coast!) are over 30 years old.

It’s probably going to be another decade or more before public opinion comes around to the aging potential of California Pinot Noir.

39

Casa Carneros Pinots age well up to about ten years. I haven’t tried them beyond that but I think I have one bottle left that is closer to fifteen years old.

40

Kyle, I think this is a proven fact.
The stability, adaptability and sustainablity go hand in hand with the age of the vines. The Character develops beyond the clone to the site the longer it is in the ground. The ability to do Stem inclusions for real effect in concentration.
The other thing about USA Pinot Noir is that it is an infant relative to Burgundy and only a handful of Vineyards have been producing quality for 25+ Years and we have not seen enough of a “Quantitative Random Sample” to judge ageability of USA Pinot Noir, Yet.