Am I Pinot'd out?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Hey Adam,

I always tell people to think of the wines they buy kind of like an album collection. Diversity is as important as good. I also think that too many of “the best” wines all fit a typical profile. And fortunately over the years I have had a ton of great people showing me really great under the radar producers. I can’tthink of a more wide ranging grape for expression, and not all at high price points. That said, if you’re burned out on Pinot Noir, here are a few wines that people have sent my way over the years and that I enjoy. None of these are that expensive, and many of the wines I list have “big brothers(or sisters)” that you can hunt down too. But these all give really value in my opinion as well as a different option from Pinot Noir.

White:
Thibaud Bourdignon, Anjou Blanc
Clos des Briords, Muscadet
Alzinger, Durnsteiner, Riesling Austria
Hexamer, Riesling Nahe (I like all of Harald Hexamer’s wines that I have tried but mostly buy the Spatlese and Kabinett)

Cab Franc:
Baudry, Chinon Loire (I like all the wines, and all are a value in my mind)
Breton, Bourgueil Loire
Olga Raffault, Chinon Loire
There’s a great thread on WB listing Loire Valley reds to delve into, so I would read that for sure. If these wines are to your taste, then the current wave of great Loire wines may keep you occupied for years.

Beaujolais-
Chanrion
Piron
Cheysson
Foillard
Thivin

Piedmont:

Todd Tucker shared a great slice of his knowledge with me when he last visited, and you should post a request for reccommendations on this board. Inarguably among the greatest wines of the world and not all out of reach pricewise.

Bordeaux-same as Piedmont but ask for reccomendations of commune rather than class. There’s so much good moderately priced Bordeaux out there, but it takes a guide.

Pinot Noir-the alt version

Chofflet Valdenaire, Givry Bourgogne
Chandon de Briailles, Pernand Vergelesses(I should just list this commune, lots of lovely wines for modest $$)
You should also follow Jasper Morris on IG and look to who he is visiting.

Lumos Wine Co, WV Oregon-Dai Crisp manages Temperance Hill, one of the Valley’s most unique sites. Just start with the entry level.

Division Wines-lots of great wines, many not Pinot Noir but those are more Loire like as well.

Thomas-see the multitude of posts about this producer. The wines are great after a decade.

McKinlay-see the multi…oh wait, no one ever posts about these wines. The top tier are smashingly good…after a decade.

…and you should by 2-3 bottles of the 2017 restaurant cuvee from Goodfellow that Vinopolis has for sale at $16. It’s an easy case filler. No fancy winemakery flavors, no high scores, just something to go with dinner.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Recently my quarterly arrivals from producers I really enjoy, like Failla and Lioco, have met with less and less enthusiasm. The wines haven’t changed, I think I have. Every time I open a PN recently, I just fail to get enthused. They’re all so “winemaker-y” and perfect and good/engineered. Nothing sticks out, it’s like they all blend. Many PN specialists producers make about a million PN’s from various vineyards, but if I’m honest, can’t really detect a huge difference between the sites in most cases.

I might need a break.

Try some Burgundy.

But, also, are you drinking young wines or wines with age? With young wines, you get fruit flavors and after a while they can all taste the same. Even if you want to stick with California Pinot, see if you can find some wines with some age on them from a wineries with a reputation for aging well. The best pinots become much more magical with age on them.

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

Hard to argue with this. But even for Oregon and California, if you’re drinking your Pinot Noir young, you either aren’t doing it right or you aren’t drinking the right producers.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

California Pinot is like if every region of France made Pinot. Plus amateurism and cynicism. But, out of that massive sea of over-hyped mediocrity are quite a few excellent ones. The suggestion of (mostly Spanish ) “Rhone” grapes hits me sort of like “So, you’re tired of American cheese? Have you tried stale toast?” There are so many exciting, wonderfully unique grapes and wine regions out there. Look for producers who understand the grapes and sites they work with and genuinely strive to make the best wines, by their own metrics, they can.

+1000

There are 800 Willamette Valley producers. 5 vintages ago, we had 400. So more than 50% of the wines produced here have minimal experience, and that doesn’t count Joe Wagner’s million plus cases that he doesn’t care that much about. Planted acreage has increased similarly, so more than half of Willamette Valley wines are from young vines.

And, in my opinion, the “top” wines are rarely the interesting ones.

[Adam_Frisch]

Adam, I see you’ve used Alicante Bouschet in your winemaking. Have you tried many examples from the Alentejo? The grape was adopted by the region much like Malbec in Argentina or Primitivo in California, with vines dating back to the 19th century, and the macacauba tasting Alicantes are one of the flagships of Alentejo, along with their fresher, more rustic cousins, the talha (terracotta/amphora) wines.

I did know that variety got adopted there to a much higher degree than in its home country, which is very interesting. I’ve spend considerable time in Portugal in my other profession, but don’t think I’ve tried any of their AB’s knowingly. I would love to hear a recommend for some of them - you have a few favorites?

I did however learn from my first vintage (which the Portuguese seem to have known for decades already, of course), that AB is certainly a grape that needs winemaking input. If anything with my own AB, I see that it needs a lot more secondary influences (it craves oak, basically) than I first believed. And aging.

French wines are a huge black spot for me and seem daunting to understand or even master. But Edging towards the precipice slowly…

Syrah’s have been drunk for quite some time (but mostly new world, admittedly) and I agree, it very well could be the best mistress in the world! Constantly surprised at the versatility of that grape. Grenache a weak spot. Coming back to Zin in a big way. Riesling is always intriguing and I keep mining its horizon.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

"They’re all so “winemaker-y” and perfect and good/engineered. Nothing sticks out, it’s like they all blend. "

I think ultra-sorting has created a bit of sameness.

I am with you on this. 8 years ago, I made a promise to only sort disease(specifically mildew and botrytis). Mostly we do whole cluster and dump straight into the fermenters with no sorting what-so-ever.

I just doubt that 200 years ago the monks in Burgundy were doing anything beyond that. Great sites make great wines. Uniform berries make monochromatic wines.

[R_Somerville]

Over the years, whenever I got bored of wine or palate fatigue, I’d go out and get a plate of carne asada tacos with face searingly spicy salsa (preferably king taco, for nostalgia’s sake) and a really hoppy IPA. Those flavors are so big and they clash so much that it effectively works as a hard reset for my palate. After a couple of days, I’d be back to normal—or I’d find something new to fancy.

What a good idea - trash your palate, temporarily, in order to reset it!

[Robert_M_yers]

"They’re all so “winemaker-y” and perfect and good/engineered. Nothing sticks out, it’s like they all blend. "

I think ultra-sorting has created a bit of sameness.

I am with you on this. 8 years ago, I made a promise to only sort disease(specifically mildew and botrytis). Mostly we do whole cluster and dump straight into the fermenters with no sorting what-so-ever.

I just doubt that 200 years ago the monks in Burgundy were doing anything beyond that. Great sites make great wines. Uniform berries make monochromatic wines.

I really don’t drink domestic Pinot anymore for some of the reasons the OP and others mentioned. I can really appreciate this philosophy though, and wish it was more widely accepted. There seem to be an endless amount of very good And delicious CA Pinot, but very few of those I’ve found interesting at the same time. I will certainly look for a bottle Of your OR Pinot in the future.

[Howard_Cooper]

French wines are a huge black spot for me and seem daunting to understand or even master. But Edging towards the precipice slowly…

You don’t need to learn about “French wines” any more than one needs to learn about “California Wines” or “Oregon Wines.” Just like with any other region of wine in the world, find a really good retailer who knows the region and try a few wines. Then, remember the ones you like more and like less and go back to the retailer with your preferences. Repeat a few times. If you cannot find a few wines you like in this manner, find a new retailer.

You seem to live in LA. Start with Envoyer.

[Howard_Cooper]

Recently my quarterly arrivals from producers I really enjoy, like Failla and Lioco, have met with less and less enthusiasm. The wines haven’t changed, I think I have. Every time I open a PN recently, I just fail to get enthused. They’re all so “winemaker-y” and perfect and good/engineered. Nothing sticks out, it’s like they all blend. Many PN specialists producers make about a million PN’s from various vineyards, but if I’m honest, can’t really detect a huge difference between the sites in most cases.

I might need a break.

Try some Burgundy.

But, also, are you drinking young wines or wines with age? With young wines, you get fruit flavors and after a while they can all taste the same. Even if you want to stick with California Pinot, see if you can find some wines with some age on them from a wineries with a reputation for aging well. The best pinots become much more magical with age on them.

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

Hard to argue with this. But even for Oregon and California, if you’re drinking your Pinot Noir young, you either aren’t doing it right or you are drinking the right producers.

Agreed. Pinot Noir becomes magical with age. No matter where the wine comes from, if the wine does not age, find a new producer.

[Scott_Brunson]

Recently my quarterly arrivals from producers I really enjoy, like Failla and Lioco, have met with less and less enthusiasm. The wines haven’t changed, I think I have. Every time I open a PN recently, I just fail to get enthused. They’re all so “winemaker-y” and perfect and good/engineered. Nothing sticks out, it’s like they all blend. Many PN specialists producers make about a million PN’s from various vineyards, but if I’m honest, can’t really detect a huge difference between the sites in most cases.

I might need a break.

Try some Burgundy.

But, also, are you drinking young wines or wines with age? With young wines, you get fruit flavors and after a while they can all taste the same. Even if you want to stick with California Pinot, see if you can find some wines with some age on them from a wineries with a reputation for aging well. The best pinots become much more magical with age on them.

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

+infinity
I find lots of variety in Burgundy.

[Tomas_Costa]

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

I’m too young to have been cellaring Burgundy for years and too poor to buy the old vintages from producers I know excel. Is the worthwhile aged Burgundy experience out of reach?

[Howard_Cooper]

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

I’m too young to have been cellaring Burgundy for years and too poor to buy the old vintages from producers I know excel. Is the worthwhile aged Burgundy experience out of reach?

From your various comments over time, I have no recommendations for you on Burgundy or wines from any place other than you should continue to drink wines from Portugal. I could give you any number of recommendations, and have done so, and you will tell me why you cannot do them. I give up.

[Kirk.Grant]

Recently my quarterly arrivals from producers I really enjoy, like Failla and Lioco, have met with less and less enthusiasm. The wines haven’t changed, I think I have. Every time I open a PN recently, I just fail to get enthused. They’re all so “winemaker-y” and perfect and good/engineered. Nothing sticks out, it’s like they all blend. Many PN specialists producers make about a million PN’s from various vineyards, but if I’m honest, can’t really detect a huge difference between the sites in most cases.

I might need a break.

Adam,

I go through this about once or twice every other year. When it happens I usually shift to wines from Italy, Bordeaux, Rhone, Loire and other wines that are generally medium-full bodied. Eventually I start craving Pinot Noir again and I’m back in a place where my wines have a little more age, and remind me how much I really do love this grape. The same did not happen for me with CA Cabernet. It was my favorite wine for about the first 2-4 years I was drinking red wines. I like them every now & again, but rarely do I drink more than a bottle or two in a year unless it’s something I’m opening for someone else that I know likes CA Cabernet.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

I just doubt that 200 years ago the monks in Burgundy were doing anything beyond that. Great sites make great wines. Uniform berries make monochromatic wines.

Well put.

Sometimes you just get burned out on similar style wines. Take a break then explore something new and different.

RT

[Kirk.Grant]

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

I’m too young to have been cellaring Burgundy for years and too poor to buy the old vintages from producers I know excel. Is the worthwhile aged Burgundy experience out of reach?

I don’t think so…Producers in the lesser valued regions still make wines that age and are special. You don’t have to buy GC Burgs to get a grand experience. I would scour the sites like wined for wines from 2010 or 2005 to see what pops up. My guess is every couple of weeks there will be something that can give you that experience for $60-$90/bottle. Which may mean you don’t buy & drink 4 $20 bottles to have the experience…but still worth it in my eyes. Then age these bottles until they’re 20-25 years past vintage and you’re drinking aged Burgundy. Also, get into a tasting group and have a theme then for opening your one bottle you get to try 3-5+ more depending on the size of your group.

On wined this week:

2010 Burgs that stand out to my eye

2010 Nicolas Rossignol Pommard Argillieres $45 + VIG
2010 Hospices de Beaune Volnay Santenots Cuvee Jehan de Massol elevage Louis Jadot $57 flat price no VIG
2010 Nicolas Rossignol Volnay Ronceret $67 + VIG
2010 Domaine De Courcel Pommard Grands Clos des Epenots $77 + VIG

2005 Burgs that stand out to my eye (all are +VIG unless otherwise noted)

2005 Domaine de la Pousse d’Or Santenay Clos Tavannes $41
2005 Domaine Marc Roy Gevrey-Chambertin Vieilles Vignes $55

[Tomas_Costa]

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

I’m too young to have been cellaring Burgundy for years and too poor to buy the old vintages from producers I know excel. Is the worthwhile aged Burgundy experience out of reach?

From your various comments over time, I have no recommendations for you on Burgundy or wines from any place other than you should continue to drink wines from Portugal. I could give you any number of recommendations, and have done so, and you will tell me why you cannot do them. I give up.

Howard, my two latest orders included Burgundy (red village and Bourgogne from recent vintages, St. Aubin whites from Lamy, Marc Colin, Paul Pillot) Baudry reds, Langhe Rosso and Chianti, and all the Burgundies had to come from France because those wines don’t make it here. Don Cornwell has been passing me on to some great insider tips on white Burgundy and I’ll be making another purchase from a French based seller he trusts. There were only two Portuguese whites in these last two shipments, from a producer I haven’t tried yet. Bottom line is, I’m buying considerably more foreign wine than Portuguese wine at the moment, and that goes hand in hand with being on this forum. If I come across as a devil’s advocate, it’s because I am. The information people provide here is extremely valuable but often contradictory. If you search this forum for two particular threads asking for red Burgundy recommendations - one for stuff under $150, the other under $400 - I think this can be easily seen. For instance, people subscribe to the ‘producer producer producer’ mantra, except when they don’t.

I have often come close to thinking I’ve hit the jackpot thanks to something I’ve read here, and it turns out that all the European wine searcher references are outdated, or the prices are much higher today than what the poster had thought, or you only manage to find places that sell that wine by the case (typical in the UK), or they’ve only got less than stellar vintages available and the CT reviews on those reflect that. My latest disappointment was finding a UK retailer with what appeared to be a very interesting selection of old Burgundy at various prices, and finding out that their shipping fees are three times what I usually pay from French sellers (although I haven’t written them off completely yet). These are the reasons, and I think valid ones, that I’m not making even more purchases than I already am.

[Tomas_Costa]

Then, try some Burgundy with age on them.

I’m too young to have been cellaring Burgundy for years and too poor to buy the old vintages from producers I know excel. Is the worthwhile aged Burgundy experience out of reach?

I don’t think so…Producers in the lesser valued regions still make wines that age and are special. You don’t have to buy GC Burgs to get a grand experience. I would scour the sites like wined for wines from 2010 or 2005 to see what pops up. My guess is every couple of weeks there will be something that can give you that experience for $60-$90/bottle. Which may mean you don’t buy & drink 4 $20 bottles to have the experience…but still worth it in my eyes. Then age these bottles until they’re 20-25 years past vintage and you’re drinking aged Burgundy. Also, get into a tasting group and have a theme then for opening your one bottle you get to try 3-5+ more depending on the size of your group.

On wined this week:

2010 Burgs that stand out to my eye

2010 Nicolas Rossignol Pommard Argillieres $45 + VIG
2010 Hospices de Beaune Volnay Santenots Cuvee Jehan de Massol elevage Louis Jadot $57 flat price no VIG
2010 Nicolas Rossignol Volnay Ronceret $67 + VIG
2010 Domaine De Courcel Pommard Grands Clos des Epenots $77 + VIG

2005 Burgs that stand out to my eye (all are +VIG unless otherwise noted)

2005 Domaine de la Pousse d’Or Santenay Clos Tavannes $41
2005 Domaine Marc Roy Gevrey-Chambertin Vieilles Vignes $55

Great list, thank you! I had seen some of those references lying around, but had no feedback on them and/or CT was unclear.

[Blake_Brown]

Adam, you make a good point when you state maybe YOU have changed as I think many of us have gone through a palate preference change or 2. Contrary to your experience however, I do find site specific nuances in wines, most vivid are the SVDs that Burt Williams made. When you compare Allen Vineyard to Hirsch or Rohioli or Summa or Coastlands, it is very easy to discern the differences, even after they have aged to over 20+ years.

I know I went through a stage of reducing intake of big and bold wines to desiring more balance, finesse and charm. I even find preferences within the Pinot Noir fruit profile where there are those that have the raspberry and strawberry notes as opposed to those that are more red cherry as opposed to those that are more black cherry and blackberry. I’m a fan of the former and less so than the latter.

Cheers

[Marshall_Manning]

Hey Adam,

I always tell people to think of the wines they buy kind of like an album collection. Diversity is as important as good. I also think that too many of “the best” wines all fit a typical profile. And fortunately over the years I have had a ton of great people showing me really great under the radar producers. I can’tthink of a more wide ranging grape for expression, and not all at high price points. That said, if you’re burned out on Pinot Noir, here are a few wines that people have sent my way over the years and that I enjoy. None of these are that expensive, and many of the wines I list have “big brothers(or sisters)” that you can hunt down too. But these all give really value in my opinion as well as a different option from Pinot Noir.

White:
Thibaud Bourdignon, Anjou Blanc
Clos des Briords, Muscadet
Alzinger, Durnsteiner, Riesling Austria
Hexamer, Riesling Nahe (I like all of Harald Hexamer’s wines that I have tried but mostly buy the Spatlese and Kabinett)

Cab Franc:
Baudry, Chinon Loire (I like all the wines, and all are a value in my mind)
Breton, Bourgueil Loire
Olga Raffault, Chinon Loire
There’s a great thread on WB listing Loire Valley reds to delve into, so I would read that for sure. If these wines are to your taste, then the current wave of great Loire wines may keep you occupied for years.

Beaujolais-
Chanrion
Piron
Cheysson
Foillard
Thivin

Piedmont:

Todd Tucker shared a great slice of his knowledge with me when he last visited, and you should post a request for reccommendations on this board. Inarguably among the greatest wines of the world and not all out of reach pricewise.

Bordeaux-same as Piedmont but ask for reccomendations of commune rather than class. There’s so much good moderately priced Bordeaux out there, but it takes a guide.

Pinot Noir-the alt version

Chofflet Valdenaire, Givry Bourgogne
Chandon de Briailles, Pernand Vergelesses(I should just list this commune, lots of lovely wines for modest $$)
You should also follow Jasper Morris on IG and look to who he is visiting.

Lumos Wine Co, WV Oregon-Dai Crisp manages Temperance Hill, one of the Valley’s most unique sites. Just start with the entry level.

Division Wines-lots of great wines, many not Pinot Noir but those are more Loire like as well.

Thomas-see the multitude of posts about this producer. The wines are great after a decade.

McKinlay-see the multi…oh wait, no one ever posts about these wines. The top tier are smashingly good…after a decade.

…and you should by 2-3 bottles of the 2017 restaurant cuvee from Goodfellow that Vinopolis has for sale at $16. It’s an easy case filler. No fancy winemakery flavors, no high scores, just something to go with dinner.

Yeah, what Marcus said. There’s so much variety out there in the wine world, so why not explore it? I never get burned out on a particular type of wine because I rarely have the same type of wine more than once per week. Over the past week we’ve had OR Pinot, CA Syrah, Ribolla Gialla, Refosco, Pouilly-Fume, Ploussard from Arbois, Rossese from Liguria, and a Txakalina Rosado. Variety is the spice of wine.

[Marshall_Manning]

French wines are a huge black spot for me and seem daunting to understand or even master. But Edging towards the precipice slowly…

This from a guy that makes Flame Tokay and Mission ? Give yourself some credit, Adam!