An interesting article re 100% Whole Cluster Pinot Noir discussion

[larry_schaffer]

I have experienced this phenomenon in tastings and in tasting rooms as well - one would think that most would be turned off by elevated levels of VA but that’s not the case. And I believe everyone’s threshold for picking it up is different . . .

Interesting point about the possibility of ‘rotten fruit’ in clusters that would affect the VA of a wine. My guess is that this would be a pretty minor effect - unless there is a LOT of it, which should be pretty noticeable.

Cheers.

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

Maybe it’s heresy, but I think fully ripe seeds are analogous to fully cooked meat. Not interested in either.

[larry_schaffer]

@Vincent Fritzsche

Maybe it’s heresy, but I think fully ripe seeds are analogous to fully cooked meat. Not interested in either.

If it were only that easy, my friend . . .

I’ve seen grapes with fully ripe seed that were no where near ‘physiological ripeness’, and I’ve seen green seeds in grapes that were ‘too ripe’ . . .

Tis what makes the process that much more fun - the unknown

Cheers

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

Good point. Perhaps the middle ground is - ripe fruit, forget the seeds. I guess what sets me off is the idea that you have to have brown seeds, but what you’re saying is it’s more complex than that. If so, agreed.

Vincent

[David_Glasser]

I’ve been thoroughly enjoying this discussion and have learned a lot.

Somehow, the recent posts on seeds in a thread about stems reminded me that Cheech and Chong weighed in on the topic several decades ago, though not in regards to Pinot Noir.

g0KAc3SCOHM

[larry_schaffer]

@Vincent Fritzsche

Good point. Perhaps the middle ground is - ripe fruit, forget the seeds. I guess what sets me off is the idea that you have to have brown seeds, but what you’re saying is it’s more complex than that. If so, agreed.

Vincent

I think you and I see eye-to-eye and these things, my friend. I don’t think either of us like dogmatic winemaking

[Blake_Brown]

Good one David. Kind of seedy tho.

[Bruce_G]

@Vincent Fritzsche

Brandon, as I have learned, whole clusters essentially have air pockets in the fermenter that allow acetobacter space to work.

This.
Use of whole cluster (especially partial whole cluster) invites heterogeneity in the fermenting must.
There will be more surface areas that can dry out and promote Acetobacter growth. There will be more spaces in the cap early on that will allow aerobic organisms to thrive. There will be a large temperature variation within the fermentor that cannot be as easily dispersed as with a full-on de-stemming. It’s also harder to monitor development of various aroma and flavor compounds than a normal ferment.

The heterogeneity is both a challenge, and (probably) a chief factor in yielding complexity.

[Bruce_G]

@Yao C

I’d point out Aubert de Villaine’s appearance on Levi Dalton’s podcast where he contradicts the popular wisdom that DRC defaults to 100% stem inclusion every year.

Hate to play the pedant, but “stem inclusion” and “whole cluster” are not synonymous.

[Bruce_G]

@Jim Anderson

This is what we have done. However, I read in one of the articles linked here (I actually read the article a while ago) that Dujac does it the other way around. I found that interesting. There was no explanation offered as to why that was. I am certainly not going to question them on what or what does not work. In fact, I am dedicating myself to have at least a couple experiments where we do one fermenter of fruit one way and fruit from the same block the other. I am not in any way certain what the results will be but I am curious to see how it goes.

If “the other way around” refers to the order in which de-stemmed v. whole clusters are put into the tank, I’ve heard at least two reasons offered.
One is simply that ‘de-stemmed on bottom’ is traditional, or (maybe more correctly) mimics tradition… in pre-de-stemmer/crusher days the clusters were just dumped into tanks. Those at the bottom (the first clusters introduced) were likely to be the most crushed, due to first the long fall and then later to the weight of grapes dumped on top. Ferments done in that fashion just naturally ended up with crushed on bottom, whole on top. Since it worked well (when it worked well), people decided to repeat the process intentionally via de-stemming/crushing.

Second reason I’ve heard is that putting whole clusters on top means less maceration of and extraction from stems, since at least some of the stems will be above the ‘waterline’ at least part of the thime.

[Todd_Hamina]

I think a large factor is how much of a control freak the winemaker is and how they roll with the punches.

[R_M_Kriete]

@Todd Hamina

I think a large factor is how much of a control freak the winemaker is and how they roll with the punch downs.

Fixed it for you

[Todd_Hamina]

Thanks Bucky.

[Bruce_G]

@Todd Hamina

I think a large factor is how much of a control freak the winemaker is and how they roll with the punches.

Out of curiosity, on which side of the issue do you find the control freaks?

[Todd_Hamina]

The biggest control freaks I know tend to destem everything.

[larry_schaffer]

@Todd Hamina

The biggest control freaks I know tend to destem everything.

Agreed 100%

[Todd_Hamina]

I just want to go for the ride.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Looks like most of the ground is already covered here but just a couple of additional thoughts.

1. early ferment VA is by no means specific to presence of acetobacter. Any number of other organisms can do the same, and additionally some amount of VA is typically produced by saccharomyces in early ferment due to incomplete alcohol pathways. That VA is typically burned off/reconsumed/evaporated as ferments hit peak temps of 85F and higher. I don’t know of a single producer using high percentages of whole cluster who also pushes warmer ferments. Stem extraction at high temps is a poor trade off for VA around threshold of perception, IMO. Additionally the very good whole berry percetages in the ferments tend to start quicker but also extend the length of ferment and have lower ferment temperature peaks.
   As an example of the VA without acetobacter, I did a small 100% wc ferment on a small bit of Cab/Cab Franc that was planted years ago at Whistling Ridge. High measured temperature was 70F(with a heater). End of ferment VA was .78 g/l, and I ran a scorpion to see what was in there. The ETS report came back negative for all spoilage organisms.

2. the concept that it makes a diffference whether you destem on top of whole cluster or layer whole clusters on top of destemmed fruit doesn’t make sense to me.
   Of my 31 Pinot Noir fermenters last year, 15 were 100% whole cluster(pretty standard for me). Flaws associated with either either stem extraction of wc on the bottom or increased acetic issues from wc on top should show in a trackable manner in any significant number of 100% bins, i haven’t seen any real quantfiable way or organileptic way.

[Bruce_G]

@larry schaffer

@Todd Hamina

The biggest control freaks I know tend to destem everything.

Agreed 100%

In this regard WC reminds me of the production of orange wine.
There are claims of naturalness and laissez faire winemaking in both. Yet in both cases we choose a fairly assertive cellar technique to imbue the wine with a definite character.

I go back and forth as to whether these approaches are actually less intrusive.

[Bruce_G]

@Marcus Goodfellow

2. the concept that it makes a diffference whether you destem on top of whole cluster or layer whole clusters on top of destemmed fruit doesn’t make sense to me.
   Of my 31 Pinot Noir fermenters last year, 15 were 100% whole cluster(pretty standard for me). Flaws associated with either either stem extraction of wc on the bottom or increased acetic issues from wc on top should show in a trackable manner in any significant number of 100% bins, i haven’t seen any real quantfiable way or organileptic way.

Barring a serious look using established experimental protocols there is no real way to know, of course.
Like so much in winemaking, intuition rules the day.