Article: The era of grower Champagnes is over

[William_Kelley]

My only quibble with a lot of grower wines is that they generally trend towards low-or-no-dosage and even as someone who really enjoys acidity I find a few examples a bit joyless and find myself wanting a bit more generosity and unctuousness to balance the sharp, linear character of the fruit. I’d be curious to learn which growers use a more classic dosage level (thank you, Vilmart!) and just generally hope that the pendulum swings back a little over the coming years.

It’s a tiresome point to make, but I do think it’s important to remember that this is about balance rather than the numbers. To take the examples cited above, the La Française with 3g/l instead of nine would likely be wincingly tart; whereas the Longitude with 9g/l would surely be cloyingly sweet. Cédric Bouchard’s wines are perfectly balanced without any dosage at all, and Olivier Collin’s are vinous and rich with between 1 and 2 grams per liter. While there certainly are, to my taste, some tart, excessively austere Champagnes being produced, let’s not reduce this, as some commentators tend to, to “add more sugar”!

It is also worth adding that “dosage” can be deceiving, as some vins clairs can retain appreciable levels of residual sugar (which is another factor among several that make tasting vins clairs especially challenging). For example, a base wine with 3 g/l RS that sees 5 grams dosage has higher sugar levels than a totally dry base wine that gets 6.5 grams per liter dosage.

[K_Tran1]

Epic quote of the year regarding FMIII tasting grower champagne. “Why don’t you try tasting them blind and see how they perform?”

I can’t stop laughing and people at work are beginning to stare. It’s uncomfortable.

Stop reading wine forum during work hour.

[William_Kelley]

I buy cases of Taittinger, I buy one or two bottles of the grower champagne. How do you expect me to remember the names?
How about this one, I just bought and tried recently, larmandier bernier longitude. This one is 50% more expensive than Taittinger, but to my palate, it is too thin, not nearly as complex, doesn’t give me much. Even at the same price point, it’s not nearly as good. If it’s 50% more expensive, the QPR is just not there.

That’s certainly surprising. For me, the Longitude is reliably quite a bit more concentrated than the La Française. In fact, I’d single it out as one of the best values in non-vintage grower Champagne, and along with Egly-Ouriet’s V.P. it’s one of my two “house” Champagnes. Of course, the dosage is more like 3 g/l vs the 9 or so g/l in La Française, but despite that I find the Longitude is more vinous and textural, with a fleshier core of fruit.

I think it’s the stylistic differences. I like champagne that has a little more weight, more brioche toast, yiesty. The Larmandier Bernier longtitude is too light, too refreshing style for me. It is not a bad champagne, I would buy again if the price is under 30. I just don’t think it is worth 50.

Well, I guess it depends on how you define “weight”. For me, the Larmandier has more weight: yields per hectoliter are lower, the fruit is riper, and I’d bet money that if you sent it to the lab you’d find it had appreciably higher levels of dry extract. The Taittinger contains more sugar and has more of the Maillard-derived toasty, yeasty qualities that come with with that, and which is sounds like you prioritize—perfectly reasonably. This is not to disparage the Taittinger, but to me it’s an apéritif whereas the Larmandier one could drink with food.

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

My only quibble with a lot of grower wines is that they generally trend towards low-or-no-dosage and even as someone who really enjoys acidity I find a few examples a bit joyless and find myself wanting a bit more generosity and unctuousness to balance the sharp, linear character of the fruit. I’d be curious to learn which growers use a more classic dosage level (thank you, Vilmart!) and just generally hope that the pendulum swings back a little over the coming years.

This.

Peter Liem harps on this a lot. Have had many more low/no dosage Champagnes that are ordinary, “meh”, or indistinguishable from one another than truly excellent.

[Greg_K]

My only quibble with a lot of grower wines is that they generally trend towards low-or-no-dosage and even as someone who really enjoys acidity I find a few examples a bit joyless and find myself wanting a bit more generosity and unctuousness to balance the sharp, linear character of the fruit. I’d be curious to learn which growers use a more classic dosage level (thank you, Vilmart!) and just generally hope that the pendulum swings back a little over the coming years.

It’s a tiresome point to make, but I do think it’s important to remember that this is about balance rather than the numbers. To take the examples cited above, the La Française with 3g/l instead of nine would likely be wincingly tart; whereas the Longitude with 9g/l would surely be cloyingly sweet. Cédric Bouchard’s wines are perfectly balanced without any dosage at all, and Olivier Collin’s are vinous and rich with between 1 and 2 grams per liter. While there certainly are, to my taste, some tart, excessively austere Champagnes being produced, let’s not reduce this, as some commentators tend to, to “add more sugar”!

It is also worth adding that “dosage” can be deceiving, as some vins clairs can retain appreciable levels of residual sugar (which is another factor among several that make tasting vins clairs especially challenging). For example, a base wine with 3 g/l RS that sees 5 grams dosage has higher sugar levels than a totally dry base wine that gets 6.5 grams per liter dosage.

I just had Vouette’s Blanc d’Argile on Saturday and it came across as very well balanced, but possibly on the more dosage side to people; it was my blind, so I knew it was extra Brut!

[Oliver_McCrum]

Stelzer seems to be saying that there are too many grower Champagnes, and only the best are worth buying, which is sort of true of everything. I prefer his writing on closures.

[brigcampbell]

William, I don’t think it’s tiresome because many don’t know. Maybe repeating it has become!

A grower picking ripe fruit with zero dosage could be the same has a big house picking green peas with 9g/l

there’s a lot of wiggle room in champagne for engineering

My only quibble with a lot of grower wines is that they generally trend towards low-or-no-dosage and even as someone who really enjoys acidity I find a few examples a bit joyless and find myself wanting a bit more generosity and unctuousness to balance the sharp, linear character of the fruit. I’d be curious to learn which growers use a more classic dosage level (thank you, Vilmart!) and just generally hope that the pendulum swings back a little over the coming years.

It’s a tiresome point to make, but I do think it’s important to remember that this is about balance rather than the numbers. To take the examples cited above, the La Française with 3g/l instead of nine would likely be wincingly tart; whereas the Longitude with 9g/l would surely be cloyingly sweet. Cédric Bouchard’s wines are perfectly balanced without any dosage at all, and Olivier Collin’s are vinous and rich with between 1 and 2 grams per liter. While there certainly are, to my taste, some tart, excessively austere Champagnes being produced, let’s not reduce this, as some commentators tend to, to “add more sugar”!

It is also worth adding that “dosage” can be deceiving, as some vins clairs can retain appreciable levels of residual sugar (which is another factor among several that make tasting vins clairs especially challenging). For example, a base wine with 3 g/l RS that sees 5 grams dosage has higher sugar levels than a totally dry base wine that gets 6.5 grams per liter dosage.

[Sean_S_y_d_n_e_y]

My only quibble with a lot of grower wines is that they generally trend towards low-or-no-dosage and even as someone who really enjoys acidity I find a few examples a bit joyless and find myself wanting a bit more generosity and unctuousness to balance the sharp, linear character of the fruit. I’d be curious to learn which growers use a more classic dosage level (thank you, Vilmart!) and just generally hope that the pendulum swings back a little over the coming years.

It’s a tiresome point to make, but I do think it’s important to remember that this is about balance rather than the numbers. To take the examples cited above, the La Française with 3g/l instead of nine would likely be wincingly tart; whereas the Longitude with 9g/l would surely be cloyingly sweet. Cédric Bouchard’s wines are perfectly balanced without any dosage at all, and Olivier Collin’s are vinous and rich with between 1 and 2 grams per liter. While there certainly are, to my taste, some tart, excessively austere Champagnes being produced, let’s not reduce this, as some commentators tend to, to “add more sugar”!

It is also worth adding that “dosage” can be deceiving, as some vins clairs can retain appreciable levels of residual sugar (which is another factor among several that make tasting vins clairs especially challenging). For example, a base wine with 3 g/l RS that sees 5 grams dosage has higher sugar levels than a totally dry base wine that gets 6.5 grams per liter dosage.

I don’t think it’s tiresome, because it’s the fundamental truth. That said, I think a lot of growers’ champagne can trend towards lack of balance and err on the side of austerity because they are philosophically oriented to making those types of wines, and rarely do I feel the opposite is true.

That is very interesting about the vins clair, though - I’d be interested to see an A/B with a vin clair at different levels of sugar fermented out and a dosage added to each to “equal” them out to the same final sugar content to see what effect it has on the finished wine.

[Howard_Cooper]

Agree with William Kelley’s thoughts, that the term “Grower Champagne” could have different meanings in different markets. A native Frenchman may have concerns about domestic and export markets, but non-natives do not.

If any producer doesn’t focus on the quality of the product, both domestic and export markets will become challenging. And good riddance.

Right, and the content of the article is hard to argue with: I interpret all the people Tyson interviews to be saying that poor and mediocre growers dependent on the French market are a declining breed, whereas the best growers will continue to thrive. It’s just the headline that’s liable to be misconstrued. A better title would have been “Some Champagne producers you have never heard of are going to disappear, continuing a long-term trend”.

Isn’t this also happening in Bordeaux and other wine regions in France and elsewhere?

[Howard_Cooper]

Taste what blind, Khong? Not sure I understand but actually in my wine group we taste nearly everything blind, as we did yesterday with the Bereche Campania Remensis and the Vilmart CdC.

I just find it interesting that you will compare producers to Taittinger, and yet you can’t remember them in support of your point. I’m not trying to rattle you up here, but simply speak in behalf of a segment off Champagne that I am passionate about, whose made some of the best wines I have tasted from anywhere in the world.

I don’t find it that surprising. I have been to the Fete de Champagne and can remember a lot of the producers I tasted there because the wines were for the most part excellent. I have been to a couple big walk-around Champagne tastings at local stores over the years and remember virtually none of the wines I tasted there because they were, for the most part, forgettable. [The stores in question have annual Champagne tastings before holiday season. After one visit to each, I stopped going. This was about a decade ago, further contributing to the fact that I don’t remember what I tasted.] Just like with other wine regions, the vast bulk of the wine made in Champagne is pretty mediocre. Of course, these are NOT the wines people on this board buy, pay attention to and discuss. Even if Taittinger La Francaise is the worse Champagne discussed on this board this week (including those mentioned on this thread), it still probably is better than 75% of the grower Champagne made in Champagne.

Frank, in case you were wondering, I very much like Bereche and Vilmart and I have found La Francaise enjoyable but a bit simple.

[AD_Northup]

No one is going to change their mind from this thread. If you find something that is a style you like, buy it.

I have found growers I like (Cedric Bouchard, Laherte, Leclapart…) and growers I don’t (Bereche comes to mind first), it’s all preference and may not be consistent over go the and cuvée.

I also keep some house champagnes around (CdC, La Grande Annee), but tend to use these as aperitifs and celebratory drinks as opposed to following them through an evening as for me they tend not to continually evolve as much. It’s however, nice to have them because you know exactly what you’re getting.

[Jay_Miller]

No one is going to change their mind from this thread. If you find something that is a style you like, buy it.

I have found growers I like (Cedric Bouchard, Laherte, Leclapart…) and growers I don’t (Bereche comes to mind first), it’s all preference and may not be consistent over go the and cuvée.

Whereas I like the first three but absolutely love Bereche.

[RyanC]

No one is going to change their mind from this thread. If you find something that is a style you like, buy it.

I have found growers I like (Cedric Bouchard, Laherte, Leclapart…) and growers I don’t (Bereche comes to mind first), it’s all preference and may not be consistent over go the and cuvée.

Whereas I like the first three but absolutely love Bereche.

C. Bouchard and Bereche may well be my two favorite “growers.” And I probably enjoy young Bouchard more than any other young Champagne, grower or otherwise. They are so singular.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I’m wine to wine on Bereche. But I have to say one of the most fabulous and interesting wines I’ve had this year was his Coteaux Champenois Blanc. Suzanne, what did you think of that at Wu’s just before the lock down?

[William_Kelley]

Agree with William Kelley’s thoughts, that the term “Grower Champagne” could have different meanings in different markets. A native Frenchman may have concerns about domestic and export markets, but non-natives do not.

If any producer doesn’t focus on the quality of the product, both domestic and export markets will become challenging. And good riddance.

Right, and the content of the article is hard to argue with: I interpret all the people Tyson interviews to be saying that poor and mediocre growers dependent on the French market are a declining breed, whereas the best growers will continue to thrive. It’s just the headline that’s liable to be misconstrued. A better title would have been “Some Champagne producers you have never heard of are going to disappear, continuing a long-term trend”.

Isn’t this also happening in Bordeaux and other wine regions in France and elsewhere?

Short answer: yes, consolidation is happening everywhere. Here is a graphic representation of how profitable winemaking is in France. I assume that Burgundy is including Beaujolais, Mâconnais, Chablis, etc here, as the Côte d’Or is clearly more profitable than this would suggest.

Rentabilité by WilliamGFKelley, on Flickr

[AD_Northup]

No one is going to change their mind from this thread. If you find something that is a style you like, buy it.

I have found growers I like (Cedric Bouchard, Laherte, Leclapart…) and growers I don’t (Bereche comes to mind first), it’s all preference and may not be consistent over go the and cuvée.

Whereas I like the first three but absolutely love Bereche.

Exactly the point! (I will also note I have definitely not tried all the Bereche cuvees)

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

I love Bouchard and Laherte Freres, haven’t had Bereche. What is their house style like in comparison to the prior two?

[David_Bu3ker]

No one is going to change their mind from this thread. If you find something that is a style you like, buy it.

I have found growers I like (Cedric Bouchard, Laherte, Leclapart…) and growers I don’t (Bereche comes to mind first), it’s all preference and may not be consistent over go the and cuvée.

Whereas I like the first three but absolutely love Bereche.

Another huge Bereche fan here. I like Bouchard more than you do.

[AD_Northup]

Apparently my memory was off…given the feedback here I went and found my most recent Bereche note (2014 Reflet d’Antan), which is extremely positive and even notes beautiful balance in general, the only negative being lower acid than I typically enjoy. I guess my comment about not like Bereche is unfair, and will be popping some other cuvees (recommendations welcome)

[Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w]

Apparently my memory was off…given the feedback here I went and found my most recent Bereche note (2014 Reflet d’Antan), which is extremely positive and even notes beautiful balance in general, the only negative being lower acid than I typically enjoy. I guess my comment about not like Bereche is unfair, and will be popping some other cuvees (recommendations welcome)

That’s a champagne that’s pretty idiosyncratic, made similar to a solera system. Most people consider it be oxidized.