At What Point is a Wine "Over the Hill"?

WINE TALK
21

So you’re saying never?

22

Are you Alan’s cousin? neener

23

My understanding is that your girlfriend prefers middle aged. [wow.gif]

24

We are looking for the elusive Goldilock’s moment.

This from last night was definitely over the hill but interesting lovely.

I guess the the porn reference is apropos.

25

I find I like wine that has lost a lot of the fruit and has developed the dusty and leathery flavor profile of an aged Bordeaux. But I still like young vibrant wines too. We opened some 1990 Condriue with some friends a while back and they thought it was awful. Caroline and I loved the mushroom and earth flavors. We opened another bottles some a different set of friends and thy enjoyed it.

I think all of our palates are so individual that it is a totally personal idea of whether a wine is too old or too young. As long as you are enjoying it, that is what matters.

26

Hard question since its so personal, but for me its when the flaws ruin ( overwhelm ) the enjoyment.Usually this is more from cork ( failure )than the age of the wine I believe. I think we’ll see a different aging curve with the new stelvin and diams ( and maybe even the new quality ( and no TCA ) in the new corks ) from 20 yrs on. Some of it may be about loving the young fruit, vs secondary and terciary flavors,but generally( for me ) when a wine goes bad ( over the hill ) its from the cork

27

Well, I do think there is a great difference between “over the hill” and “past apogee/prime” …

1st: old wines have to be treated with care and according to the age … meaning IMHO that slow-oxing them is very important. A wine can show totally shot right after opening, but will unfold and gain sweetness and nicely aged fruit within a few hours after opening - so a judgement within a few minutes may be totally wrong … give it time.
On the other hand decanting right after pulling the cork can be desatrous … the wine can get sharp and fruitless - and really be dead … and it will never reach the best stage of enjoyment …

A wine is “over the hill” when it is - after soft exposure to air by slow oxing for several hours - still showing almost no fruit but sharp acidity and clear heavy oxidation, and when it is of no interest and without any enjoyment …

This can happen to “simple wines” not made for long aging and after decades of storage …
wines that have been stored, shipped badly (too warm) …
wines with a very low fill caused by bad cork quality …
wines vinified badly from the start, bottled with heaving filtering, not enough sulfur … or gained off-odours somehow …
or wines that are simply of a very high age and not in perfect shape.

But there are wines that might have been better some years ago, should have been already drunk up and are clearly going downhill, losing fruit and expression …
BUT are still showing interesting components as complex tertiaer aromas like wet leaves, moss and old mushrooms,
having an orange or browning colour, showing tiny signs of oxidation in the background, but can still be enjoyed at the table … or being an interesting topic for discussion …
I would call them “past apogee” but not “totally over the hill, shot or dead” …

To drain such wines immediately down the sink because they are not youthful anymore means you might never ever be able to experience such “old guys” …

AND many old wines start “over apogee” but can be great drinks after a few hours … !!!

28

Moose and mushrooms sounds like something you’d pair with wine, not the actual wine. [shock.gif]

Personally, chocolate moose is my favorite. [snort.gif]

29

You´re right - I meant “moss” (not moose)
Going to edit it above …

(sorry, English is not my mother tongue)

30

To me, “over the hill” means devoid of pleasure on any level: hedonistic or intellectual. And, it’s never an “either or”.

In my years of collecting, I’ve never had a bottle of red wine I consider “over the hill”. (Some whites have oxidized into oblivion , for sure, but they are usually flawed or required sooner drinking). Usually, people use “over the hill” for older wines they’ve mishandled before it gets to their mouths. It is much more pleasing and convenient to blame the wine, rather than the handling. It makes the person who has just spent a ton of money on a wine feel better about the waste of money.

People who want to drink older wines (for me that is older than 20 years old at a minimum), need to have a strategy and understand their own goals: I am not looking for primary fruit, but some interesting component from the passage of time itself added to the mix. But, a handling strategy is also crucial. I read of some experiences on WB and laugh about how the process is ruined with a lack of handling strategy.

I think the “slow ox” strategy does nothing much, but it doesn’t likely hurt anything for the same reason. I am a believer in the vital importance of both cleaning the wines of sediment before serving and providing a “sensible” amount of aeration. “Sensible” is all semantics, and I have no rigid regimen to offer.

But, when I have a “bad” experience, I never look to the older wine as being at fault UNLESS I have done what I can to optimize its performance. If I have done that, there is almost always some pleasure to be gleaned, maybe more intellectual, but that is why people age wines, too…for the intellectual pleasure and lessons and rewards. Goals must be realistic and understood by all of us.

And, most often, when I think a wine is “bad” or “over the hill”, aeration – after cleaning of sediment --will bring life to it…if I am open minded and patient…and don’t rush to judgment.

31

Maybe it is a language thing, but I would regard these terms as completely synonymous. The “apogee/prime” would represent the summit of the hill in the “over the hill” idiom. So over the hill literally means past prime. It does not mean dead or diseased, as can be attested by those “over the hill” coffee mugs they sell as gag gifts for birthdays. So chemical flaws like oxidation or maderization are not what I would put in the “over the hill” zone, but in the “DOA” zone.

32

Well, to me “over the hill” implies an inability to rescue such a wine…given the momentum. Sort of like the Temptations sang: Like a snowball rolling down the side of a snow covered hill, it’s growing. No stopping its descent.

33

My understanding is (in English as well as in German) “over the hill” means on the other side of the hill already again in flat land …
When a wine is just over peak (apogee) there´s still a long way downhill on the other side (literally) … which is still more important because
a) it is very hard to know for sure where/when the peak is …
b) some types of wines can have more than one peak …

34

Usually when they complain about aching joints, receding hair, enlarged prostate…

…oh wait, I thought you said wino.

35

Over the hill=no longer at peak, in decline—leaving peak and decline, subjective determinations, TBD by each drinker analyzing to the best of their experience and sensory capabilities and judgement by personal preferences.
This is the gateway phrase into the realm of nebulous, next!

36

Even if an old/past it wine is not drinkable, the bouquet often enticing/pleasurable. For that reason alone, it has value.

37

Uhhhhhhh…Dan…now we’re hitting close to home here!! [snort.gif]

I propose we choose anuther term than “over the hill”. That’s a little to close for comfort.

To me…a “too old” wine is one that, in addition to no longer offering sensory pleasure, no longer
offers any intellectual pleasure as well. I’ve had plenty of older Qupe or EdSt wines that are on
the tired & dried-out side…but you can still hear Bob or Steve speaking to us thru the wine.

I don’t think that “oxidation” is necessarily bad. I’ve had plenty of old wines that were a murky brown (oxidation),
yet still offered up lots of pleasurable aromas & tastes. We accept oxidation in sherry & rancio wines.

I’d offer a few more thoughts…but I gotta go rub BenGay on my knees!!!
Tom

38

Man, I wish you lived near me. I’d have a lot of wine to give you upon opening. If a wine isn’t drinkable, I might give it a quick return whiff after tasting it, but that’s it for me and renders it basically worthless. In fact, it’s worse than worthless because even as I’ve opened another bottle I’m bitter about the whole process of buying/waiting on the previous sucky bottle.
Happened to us last night. We popped a 99 Mondavi Tokalon Fume that was undrinkable (which is worse than over-the-hill to me). Went safe and just popped a 2012 Ferrari Carano Rsv Chard. Then moved on to reds and opened a 97 Spottswoode. Over the hill. Still mildly enjoyable, but a huge disappointment. Note that I do suspect provenance issues on it as it was an auction lot and all have been mediocre, while some other bottles I’ve had from elsewhere have been better. Again, had to play it safe and just open a 10/11/12 Opus Overture. But the whole wine night was compromised by the two over-the-hill bottles which cast some doubt on one’s buying/holding strategies.

Btw, to me, while there are no clear definitions, over-the-hill is worse than simply past prime. Also, to me, prime is a wider spot on a curve than apogee or even peak. To me the apogee or peak might be the ideal approximate year to drink a red. While it’s prime might be a longer period where it is still very good, that might encompass another year (or so at least) on each side of the one year apogee. Over-the-hill, to me, refers to the even later period where the enjoyment level is significantly less than the period when the wine is simply just over it’s absolute peak. Of course I realize that everyone else has their own definitions.

As an aside, I had 99 Fisher Coach Insignia last week that I bought on release that was “past prime” but not over-the-hill. We all drank it but were disappointed in it and left some in the bottle. Unfortunately that has been the case in more than half of the 99 Cabs I’ve opened in the past year or two.

39

13 Saxum Broken Stones tonight, any concern it will be over the hill ?

Slow cooking some spiced brisket, cheesey mash and mushrooms

Looking forward to it

40

Yes. Personal taste.

ETA: if you ever see me use the term “over the hill” I mean “past prime”; I rarely use the term, however.