Best Pairing for Peking Duck

[Dan_Kravitz]

to Gret T,

The fat does not keep the meat from being overcooked.
I keep the meat from being overcooked.
The fat keeps it moist and tender.

Dan Kravitz

[Jay_Miller]

Burgundy. With the duck part. The fatty crispy skin. Money.

Exactly. Skip the hoisin and accoutrements.

Trying to pair the hoisin part is like trying to pair wine with ketchup.

Yah usually i’ll drink the burg before the duck is served… (with say suckling pig… droolll).

then when the duck’s served, i’ll eat a couple of wraps with all the sauce/onion etc… and not drink wine.

then go to duck only w/ wine.

So you are all saying Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as it isn’t prepared as Peking duck? I suppose I agree but …

[Gary_York]

Yep. You pretty much have it right. One of my favorite places has roasted ducks hanging up in the case. You can get 1/4, 1/2 or whole ducks with sweetened soy sauce on the side. And add just a few drops to the meat. Pared with Burgundy or Barbaresco it is off the charts.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Exactly. Skip the hoisin and accoutrements.

Trying to pair the hoisin part is like trying to pair wine with ketchup.

Yah usually i’ll drink the burg before the duck is served… (with say suckling pig… droolll).

then when the duck’s served, i’ll eat a couple of wraps with all the sauce/onion etc… and not drink wine.

then go to duck only w/ wine.

So you are all saying Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as it isn’t prepared as Peking duck? I suppose I agree but …

Exactly my thoughts, Jay: “but…” indeed. There are plenty of times to drink Burgundy when it’s the perfect pairing. Many even involve duck - seared breast, confit leg, braised legs… it’s not like I’m looking for opportunities. I see no reason to adjust the Peking duck experience to try and make it fit with burgundy, when there are many delicious wines which can work well just as the dish is served, lacquered skin, cucumbers/onions, sauces and all?

[Mark_Y]

Yah usually i’ll drink the burg before the duck is served… (with say suckling pig… droolll).

then when the duck’s served, i’ll eat a couple of wraps with all the sauce/onion etc… and not drink wine.

then go to duck only w/ wine.

So you are all saying Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as it isn’t prepared as Peking duck? I suppose I agree but …
[/quote]

I love eating peking duck with Burgs… just switch up a bit of how i eat it…
but basically going for peking duck (a well made one), and having a burg is a fun night… that’s really all i care about?

[David_Bu3ker]

King Fung in Boston used to be a destination for Peking Duck. The only people I ever saw in there were Chinese (60%) and wine geeks (40%). BYOB, no corkage.

Oh I miss those King Fung offlines. Had to bring a six pack of beer for the chef. Would always walk out with a quart or two of duck soup made from the bones of the Peking Duck. That soup (once strained) made extraordinary risotto.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Yah usually i’ll drink the burg before the duck is served… (with say suckling pig… droolll).

then when the duck’s served, i’ll eat a couple of wraps with all the sauce/onion etc… and not drink wine.

then go to duck only w/ wine.

So you are all saying Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as it isn’t prepared as Peking duck? I suppose I agree but …

I love eating peking duck with Burgs… just switch up a bit of how i eat it…
but basically going for peking duck (a well made one), and having a burg is a fun night… that’s really all i care about?
[/quote]

But the question isn’t “what makes a fun night for you?” The question is about pairing - going together, and going together well. If you have to drink the wine before and after the dish, but not WITH the dish, or you have to change the dish itself to make it work, then that is by definition not a pairing at all, let alone a good one.

Or, to switch up Jay’s comment: “Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as you are you not actually pairing it with Peking duck.”

I realize some people are actually saying that it’s a good pairing. We can legitimately argue about that. But this line of response - that it’s a good pairing as along as it’s not actually a pairing - doesn’t hold water.

(PS - sorry Jay, somehow the quotes got messed up and the wrong quotations are attributed to the wrong person)

[James_Todd]

I attended several offlines at Peking Duck House (PDH) in NYC. Every type of liquid that goes into a bottle was present.

Basically, all of the above.

I was at Peking Duck House NY about this this time last year and had a great match with Zin. Biale “Aldo’s” I believe.

Biale used to send pairing suggestions along with their wine club shipments and Peking Duck with plum sauce was recommended as a pairing for Black Chicken.

[Dan_Kravitz]

Yah usually i’ll drink the burg before the duck is served… (with say suckling pig… droolll).

then when the duck’s served, i’ll eat a couple of wraps with all the sauce/onion etc… and not drink wine.

then go to duck only w/ wine.

So you are all saying Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as it isn’t prepared as Peking duck? I suppose I agree but …

I love eating peking duck with Burgs… just switch up a bit of how i eat it…
but basically going for peking duck (a well made one), and having a burg is a fun night… that’s really all i care about?

But the question isn’t “what makes a fun night for you?” The question is about pairing - going together, and going together well. If you have to drink the wine before and after the dish, but not WITH the dish, or you have to change the dish itself to make it work, then that is by definition not a pairing at all, let alone a good one.

Or, to switch up Jay’s comment: “Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as you are you not actually pairing it with Peking duck.”


I realize some people are actually saying that it’s a good pairing. We can legitimately argue about that. But this line of response - that it’s a good pairing as along as it’s not actually a pairing - doesn’t hold water.

(PS - sorry Jay, somehow the quotes got messed up and the wrong quotations are attributed to the wrong person)
[/quote]


Everybody seems to treat the classic US serving (duck skin, duck meat, scallions and hoisin) as incompatible with Burgundy / Pinot Noir. As I was saying… a lot depends on HOW MUCH hoisin (and scallion) you use. If the hoisin is a tiny inflection to the flavors of the skin, meat and pancake, it can be one of the greatest of all wine and food pairings. If you overdose on the hoisin, you might as try matching red Burgundy with scotch bonnet peppers, curried fish stew or chicken flavored ice cream.

Dan Kravitz

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Everybody seems to treat the classic US serving (duck skin, duck meat, scallions and hoisin) as incompatible with Burgundy / Pinot Noir. As I was saying… a lot depends on HOW MUCH hoisin (and scallion) you use. If the hoisin is a tiny inflection to the flavors of the skin, meat and pancake, it can be one of the greatest of all wine and food pairings. If you overdose on the hoisin, you might as try matching red Burgundy with scotch bonnet peppers, curried fish stew or chicken flavored ice cream.

Dan Kravitz

Respectfully, I find it does not work well even with only a little hoisin, which is all I would ever use, due to the added factor of the soy and sweetness of the skin. I find that plus even a bit of sauce kills dry red wine. Perhaps l am particularly sensitive since I don’t eat sweet things in general.

FWIW, I have eaten a lot of Peking Duck in Hong Kong, and most of the best places I have been to there don’t put any meat in the pancakes at all, only skin. I don’t know enough to know if this is common enough to be called the norm there, but it’s what I’ve encountered over a dozen or so visits to several restaurants. Just a point of interest, not all that relevant to the discussion at hand, since I have had a bunch of it in the US, too, and wouldn’t choose red burgundy place.

[Dan_Kravitz]

Sarah,

Thanks for the comment. If we all liked the same thing, we’d have one red wine, one white wine, pour a drop of red in the white for Rose, and I’d have to find a job.

I also don’t eat sweet things. I have a microscopic bit of chocolate with my espresso every morning, and that’s it for refined sugar for the day (unless peking duck with a drop of hoisin or a burger with a drop of ketchup). I’ve never been to Hong Kong, but the few (as authentic as I can find) Chinese restaurants I’ve eaten in in the U.S. do the same as your Hong Kong places. The classic authentic preparation is apparently pancakes with skin, then the meat, then finish with soup. Most of the (sigh) greasy chopsticks in the U.S. I’ve found serve it (if they bring the pancakes prepped for you) with equal parts skin and meat, slathered in way too much hoisin, and usually a lot of scallions, although too often scallions plus cucumber. I think that the American pairing of skin and duck meat works better with Pinot than skin alone. As always, ymmv. If there’s more than a drop of hoisin, I also won’t go red Burg; give me a Riesling with a little RS. If the restaurant serves it with too much hoisin, I simply don’t go back.

Dan Kravitz

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Sarah,

Thanks for the comment. If we all liked the same thing, we’d have one red wine, one white wine, pour a drop of red in the white for Rose, and I’d have to find a job.

I also don’t eat sweet things. I have a microscopic bit of chocolate with my espresso every morning, and that’s it for refined sugar for the day (unless peking duck with a drop of hoisin or a burger with a drop of ketchup). I’ve never been to Hong Kong, but the few (as authentic as I can find) Chinese restaurants I’ve eaten in in the U.S. do the same as your Hong Kong places. The classic authentic preparation is apparently pancakes with skin, then the meat, then finish with soup. Most of the (sigh) greasy chopsticks in the U.S. I’ve found serve it (if they bring the pancakes prepped for you) with equal parts skin and meat, slathered in way too much hoisin, and usually a lot of scallions, although too often scallions plus cucumber. I think that the American pairing of skin and duck meat works better with Pinot than skin alone. As always, ymmv. If there’s more than a drop of hoisin, I also won’t go red Burg; give me a Riesling with a little RS. If the restaurant serves it with too much hoisin, I simply don’t go back.

Dan Kravitz

I think we are largely on the same page here, and thanks for confirming my impression of the traditional method. I also agree that skin+meat in the pancakes makes the pinot pairing much better than skin alone.

[Mark_Y]

But the question isn’t “what makes a fun night for you?” The question is about pairing - going together, and going together well. If you have to drink the wine before and after the dish, but not WITH the dish, or you have to change the dish itself to make it work, then that is by definition not a pairing at all, let alone a good one.

Or, to switch up Jay’s comment: “Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as you are you not actually pairing it with Peking duck.”

I realize some people are actually saying that it’s a good pairing. We can legitimately argue about that. But this line of response - that it’s a good pairing as along as it’s not actually a pairing - doesn’t hold water.

Gonna disagree here… If i eat the food and drink the wine, and it is a good night… that IS a good pairing to me…

Put another way, the question is what’s “best pairing for peking duck”. The answer for me is every time i eat PK Duck, i want to have a burg… does that not answer the question - “best pairing for PK duck” - at least for me? You can have different preferences… but i didn’t say this is a definitively proven answer, i just said for me… otherwise what do you call ‘good’? is there a scientific study of what ‘good’ is?

I consider it a good pairing b/c i enjoy eating PK duck and drinking burgs - in the same restaurant, on the same night. I don’t care if there’s a 20 second delay between my sip of wine and the bite of meat, or if there’s a 2 mins differential… or with or without sauce, or scallion. Why is it so technical?

[Mark_Y]

FWIW, I have eaten a lot of Peking Duck in Hong Kong, and most of the best places I have been to there don’t put any meat in the pancakes at all, only skin. I don’t know enough to know if this is common enough to be called the norm there, but it’s what I’ve encountered over a dozen or so visits to several restaurants.

My understanding is that in the industry, the “true skill of the chef” is shown by how perfect/flavorful they can make the skin, and not how good the regular meat is… That’s why in most proper PKD places (especially in China) they will generally give you a serving of the skin first… to ‘show it off!’ and then they give you the rest (skin/meat/etc). Usually i believe it’s skin from a specific part of the duck as well (i can’t remember which part it is)… but yah the most ‘primal’ piece basically they show off…

Agree too that skin + meat in the wrap tastes better than skin alone.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

I actually do think there are technical elements in a combination of food and wine that make some pairings objectively better than others. And that, while personal taste is a big part of the equation (even the most important when it comes to choosing your beverage for the night), it is not the only thing going on when it comes to a discussion of good pairings. Sashimi with big young cabernet is not a good pairing, no matter how many people at my local Japanese BYO are enjoying it on a given night.

I’ve supported this lonely position - that there are objective standards of quality which go along with the subjective - in many a thread on this board, and realize it is not a popular one. But I believe in it strongly enough that I will continue to state it, even if I’m alone in its support.

[alan_weinberg]

I’ve supported this lonely position - that there are objective standards of quality which go along with the subjective - in many a thread on this board, and realize it is not a popular one. But I believe in it strongly enough that I will continue to state it, even if I’m alone in its support.

you are far from alone.

[T_Altmayer]

I’ve supported this lonely position - that there are objective standards of quality which go along with the subjective - in many a thread on this board, and realize it is not a popular one. But I believe in it strongly enough that I will continue to state it, even if I’m alone in its support.

you are far from alone.

+2

[Mark_Y]

I actually do think there are technical elements in a combination of food and wine that make some pairings objectively better than others. And that, while personal taste is a big part of the equation (even the most important when it comes to choosing your beverage for the night), it is not the only thing going on when it comes to a discussion of good pairings. Sashimi with big young cabernet is not a good pairing, no matter how many people at my local Japanese BYO are enjoying it on a given night.

I’ve supported this lonely position - that there are objective standards of quality which go along with the subjective - in many a thread on this board, and realize it is not a popular one. But I believe in it strongly enough that I will continue to state it, even if I’m alone in its support.

Sarah, I actually agree completely… You’re not alone. my bad if i went the lazy route to say “hey i like it so it’s a good pairing” rather than break down objectively why i think they are great… I do think there are objectively better pairings than others, related to technical combination of food/wine.

Objectively i think PKD is a great pairing to Burgundy… Note. not Peking Hoisin sauce and burgundy
The sauce is not great in large quantities for me. I’m not too sensitive in small amounts… but The DUCK itself, prepared in the way PKD is prepared, i think can be magical with Burgs. Just like roasted duck and burg is a natural pairing to me. PKD is just an exceptionally roasted duck.
WRT the sauce, if you are sensitive, i’d skip the sauce when you drink with burg… if you’re not sensitive, have a little. When i want a large dollap, i’ll have a wrap without the wine… which is fine.

To me Jay’s comment of “Burgundy is a good pairing with Peking duck so long as you are you not actually pairing it with Peking duck” is completely invalid. Hoisin sauce doesn’t make that dish PKD… the way it’s prepared is what makes it PKD. In the literally 100+ times i’ve had PKD, many of them in Beijing, HK, etc, i’ve seen many people, including local folks eat it without the sauce, or without scallions, or even without the wrap (which to me personally is essential). the rest are just condiments. We’re always having Peking Duck.
If you don’t finish butter on a steak, doesn’t mean you don’t like steak. If you don’t like wasabi, doesn’t mean you don’t like, or it’s not Negri. etc… same idea.

[Jim_Macias]

I am late to a very interesting discussion on Peking duck, and certainly less qualified on wine/food pairings than the experienced folks in this forum. This is one of the main reasons I joined WB, i.e. to learn from others.

Having lived in China for a few years now I can possibly add the following insights. I have had dozens of shared PKD meals with business associates and family members. For me, pairing beverages for the evening is always a challenge due to so many different preferences, and the complexity of flavors and textures that comes with a full duck meal. From beginning to end of the meal there will be skin (often with sugar to augment), sauces, various duck meat parts, vegetables, duck feet, pancakes, spices, etc. Also most will serve Mao Xue Wang, which is a Sichuan style dish made from the left over organ meats and blood - very spicy! I love this!!!

In any case, with regard to beverage pairing. My Chinese colleagues very often drink warm water, tea or nothing, possibly holding out for the baijiu. For the wine lovers, I have had some success going with simple choices like Pinot for red and Riesling or Chenin Blanc for white. For me, to be completely honest it tends to be a beer evening more often than not.