“Cabernet is a zero these days”: Dan Berger on Napa Cabernet in trouble

[Otto_Forsberg]

some of those might cost you more than others, as every wine from that area does.

I hope I’m not the only one who got confused by this

[F.Daner]

John- give Long Meadow Ranch Rutherford estate a shot. To me it reminds me of the wines from Napa in the 90’s. Alc’s are low 14/high 13’s. The Rutherford had been $68 to the wine club through fall of last year. I skipped this year due to moving and lack of storage for awhile.

With enough reading, asking questions here, asking winemakers, understanding winemakers style and who they work with, vineyards, farmers, etc etc you can find any style Napa cab you want. Some are made exactly like the ones from the 70s and 80s and sure, some of those might cost you more than others, as every wine from that area does. There’s more variety than ever before. Not sure what I’m missing.

Name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from the 70s. Now name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from the 80s.

Now for me personally, name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from 1991-1994.

I think I’ve only had a couple of high quality relatively recent Napa cab releases in the 13s abv. Corison and the odd Kapscandy. If you’ve got some great list, I’d love it if you shared it here. And please, I’m not trying to be a dick. I don’t know them. That’s the style of Napa cabs that I prefer. I don’t know any Napa cabs in the mid-high 12s like most wines from the 70s, and based on my experiences with wine in the 70s, that’s probably a good thing. Low 13s like many 80s cabs seem super rare. High 13s like early 90s are also very rare, but you can find a couple of good producers who can really make those wines shine alright. What I usually get in this discussion is 4 posts before someone starts talking about Forman without realizing they’ve been making 15.2% abv cabs for a decade+. I dogged on Far Niente for pricing above, but at least they’re well located and seem somewhat committed to hanging around in the 14s at least (probably high 14s, unfortunately). I would love to see a shift to a more red-fruited and less new french oak style and while many wineries have dialed back the high abv and percentage new oak, it’s still very prevalent.

[Robert_Dentice]

Nothing is really new in that article. I do often wonder who buys all of the newer $350+ vanity project Cabs made by the same consultants.

I wish he would have mentioned some of the younger passionate winemakers like Graeme and Ketan. Last time I checked MacDonald has had zero problem selling Cabernet.

[Howard_Cooper]

With enough reading, asking questions here, asking winemakers, understanding winemakers style and who they work with, vineyards, farmers, etc etc you can find any style Napa cab you want. Some are made exactly like the ones from the 70s and 80s and sure, some of those might cost you more than others, as every wine from that area does. There’s more variety than ever before. Not sure what I’m missing.

Name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from the 70s. Now name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from the 80s.

Now for me personally, name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from 1991-1994.

I think I’ve only had a couple of high quality relatively recent Napa cab releases in the 13s abv. Corison and the odd Kapscandy. If you’ve got some great list, I’d love it if you shared it here. And please, I’m not trying to be a dick. I don’t know them. That’s the style of Napa cabs that I prefer. I don’t know any Napa cabs in the mid-high 12s like most wines from the 70s, and based on my experiences with wine in the 70s, that’s probably a good thing. Low 13s like many 80s cabs seem super rare. High 13s like early 90s are also very rare, but you can find a couple of good producers who can really make those wines shine alright. What I usually get in this discussion is 4 posts before someone starts talking about Forman without realizing they’ve been making 15.2% abv cabs for a decade+. I dogged on Far Niente for pricing above, but at least they’re well located and seem somewhat committed to hanging around in the 14s at least (probably high 14s, unfortunately). I would love to see a shift to a more red-fruited and less new french oak style and while many wineries have dialed back the high abv and percentage new oak, it’s still very prevalent.

Is Stony Hill still on the list or have their Cabs changed since it was sold?

I think of Mount Eden as a throw-back style Napa Cabernet except for the tiny little detail that the wine is not from Napa.

But, I think the #1 problem is Napa Cabernet is price. I am not a fan of more modern styled Napa Cabernet, but many are. If they want to sell more Napa Cabernet, stop raising the price and see what happens. While we are at it, I wish fewer people bought Burgundy and prices there would also decline. The last time prices for wine really declined was in 2008-9. All of this could be more about the economy than about the wines.

[Howard_Cooper]

Nothing is really new in that article. I do often wonder who buys all of the newer $350+ vanity project Cabs made by the same consultants.

I wish he would have mentioned some of the younger passionate winemakers like Graeme and Ketan. Last time I checked MacDonald has had zero problem selling Cabernet.

Yes. Mentioning two really tiny producers whose wines hardly anyone will ever see will solve the issue of overpriced California Cabs.

[CJ_Beazley]

Who is Dan Berger?

[Robert_Dentice]

Nothing is really new in that article. I do often wonder who buys all of the newer $350+ vanity project Cabs made by the same consultants.

I wish he would have mentioned some of the younger passionate winemakers like Graeme and Ketan. Last time I checked MacDonald has had zero problem selling Cabernet.

Yes. Mentioning two really tiny producers whose wines hardly anyone will ever see will solve the issue of overpriced California Cabs.

Howard - Your comment is a bit rude. I don’t know you at all but I think from reading your posts over the years you don’t really spend any time in Napa?

Much of the article is about style and ageability so I do think mentioning producers who have dialed back ripeness and gone back to a style that broadens the audience for Napa cab is relevant and there are many others. You have to start somewhere. The article is about the lack of demand for Napa cabs but here you have two producers who are making wines that he says are no longer made and sell out immediately, I think MacDonald has a several year wait list. Relevant? Well maybe if others in Napa Valley followed their lead they could sell more wine…

[Marc_Hauser]

I’m still trying to understand why he is citing a bulk wine report, a winemaker who’s no longer in Napa, and a single buyer in Texas as evidence of the retail death of Napa cab. Why doesn’t he cite any actual bottle sales statistics?

I’ve been polling my ITB friends here in Napa and none of them are seeing what he’s claiming. High-priced, allocated cabs sell out without issue. Napa wineries across the board had an amazing 2021. Maybe his concern is about the $50-ish bottle of Napa cab? I just don’t get it.

[Scott_Brunson]

some of those might cost you more than others, as every wine from that area does.

I hope I’m not the only one who got confused by this

You’re not alone.

[Glen_Gold]

John- give Long Meadow Ranch Rutherford estate a shot. To me it reminds me of the wines from Napa in the 90’s. Alc’s are low 14/high 13’s. The Rutherford had been $68 to the wine club through fall of last year. I skipped this year due to moving and lack of storage for awhile.

With enough reading, asking questions here, asking winemakers, understanding winemakers style and who they work with, vineyards, farmers, etc etc you can find any style Napa cab you want. Some are made exactly like the ones from the 70s and 80s and sure, some of those might cost you more than others, as every wine from that area does. There’s more variety than ever before. Not sure what I’m missing.

Name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from the 70s. Now name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from the 80s.

Now for me personally, name five really high quality napa cabs made like the ones from 1991-1994.

I think I’ve only had a couple of high quality relatively recent Napa cab releases in the 13s abv. Corison and the odd Kapscandy. If you’ve got some great list, I’d love it if you shared it here. And please, I’m not trying to be a dick. I don’t know them. That’s the style of Napa cabs that I prefer. I don’t know any Napa cabs in the mid-high 12s like most wines from the 70s, and based on my experiences with wine in the 70s, that’s probably a good thing. Low 13s like many 80s cabs seem super rare. High 13s like early 90s are also very rare, but you can find a couple of good producers who can really make those wines shine alright. What I usually get in this discussion is 4 posts before someone starts talking about Forman without realizing they’ve been making 15.2% abv cabs for a decade+. I dogged on Far Niente for pricing above, but at least they’re well located and seem somewhat committed to hanging around in the 14s at least (probably high 14s, unfortunately). I would love to see a shift to a more red-fruited and less new french oak style and while many wineries have dialed back the high abv and percentage new oak, it’s still very prevalent.

I haven’t tried Enfield cabs for a few years but remember liking them and they still seem to be around 13.2% (and very nice CT notes). Beta, which I discussed in another thread, has 12.3% in its Vare bottling and is said by folks who know to be on track to age like a '70s cab.

[Steve_Crawford]

if you water back a 15% cab you can get a 13% cab. this way your self-dealings accomplish the same thing the winemakers do.

problem solved.

[Alex_N]

I’m confused reading that now, but it shouldn’t take much to understand what I meant.
I’d throw out Jordan, Dunn, Beta, Stony Hill, Corison - all under 14% or with at least a 14% threshold, age-able for decades. There hundreds of articles with about old-fashioned style Napa cabs being produced and winemakers who haven’t changed their practices since the 70s and 80s. I’ve never had a young Dunn that I liked, and what I’ve tasted from Beta is definitely in that category. Definitely not going to participate in a pissing match about wine. As someone above mentioned it’ll be a see-saw multi page thread, so I’ll check in and read the updates

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

For me, though, the combination of pricing and style has made Napa cab terrible QPR. There is a tremendous amount of wine I’d like to buy f0r $225 a bottle, but not much of it is Napa cab. What’s happened for me is a steady decline in purchasing.

I haven’t purchased a Napa Cab in a decade or more. The QPR is terrible to my palate too. Anecdotally I know a handful of diehards (here in PA’s wine gulag) that love the perceived prestige, cachet and exclusivity. They’re retired and drinking/buying appreciably less…year after year. When they were buying heavily, price ($200 - $400+ per bottle) didn’t seem to be a huge factor. They still get very excited about visiting and reluctantly give up coveted mailing list slots. I have to imagine they’re being replaced by similar minded and somewhat younger buyers.

RT

[K_John_Joseph]

if you water back a 15% cab you can get a 13% cab. this way your self-dealings accomplish the same thing the winemakers do.

problem solved.

That’s the Randy Dunn method, right?

[Nate_Simon]

if you water back a 15% cab you can get a 13% cab. this way your self-dealings accomplish the same thing the winemakers do.

problem solved.

That’s the Randy Dunn method, right?

A common practice in winemaking. “Jesus juice”…turn water into wine (i.e. revenue). Increased ripeness, but acceptable alcohol levels.

[K_John_Joseph]

I’m confused reading that now, but it shouldn’t take much to understand what I meant.
I’d throw out Jordan, Dunn, Beta, Stony Hill, Corison - all under 14% or with at least a 14% threshold, age-able for decades. There hundreds of articles with about old-fashioned style Napa cabs being produced and winemakers who haven’t changed their practices since the 70s and 80s. I’ve never had a young Dunn that I liked, and what I’ve tasted from Beta is definitely in that category. Definitely not going to participate in a pissing match about wine. As someone above mentioned it’ll be a see-saw multi page thread, so I’ll check in and read the updates

Jordan is not napa cab. It’s Alexander Valley in sonoma, so misses the category. With that said, I rather like the softer red fruit profile of Jordan. Beta is Napa and Sonoma, but I’ve not had their wines (if right on the edge like Pride on Spring Mountain, it’s Napa enough, but I don’t know enough about Beta to make a call on whether it’s truly Napa cab or not). Dunn, Stony Hill, Corison are all typically sub 14%. Dunn is more famously worked to get there, and implements massive oak influences with 32 months in 100% new french oak. For an “old school” wine I’ve always kind of thought Dunn was as new school in production as it gets, working backwards to a lower ABV. Stony Hill is now nearly $200 a bottle, but that’s falling into stock good wine category, as I mentioned above so can’t bitch too much about that. I’ll have to score some and check in. I’ve not had a bottle in ages.

[Alex_N]

I’ve got a 2009 Dunn but I’d like to wait at least 5+ years since it’s my last one. Thanks for correcting me about Jordan, I assumed we were talking about the general area (Napa, Sonoma, AV, etc).

[Yao_C]

I suppose that’s the trouble with extrapolating from personal experience. Whenever prices rise significantly in any region there’s always going to be people who’re priced out and resort to yelling sour grapes. Thankfully I can substitute Bordeaux for Napa

Dunn, Stony Hill, Corison are all typically sub 14%. Dunn is more famously worked to get there, and implements massive oak influences with 32 months in 100% new french oak. For an “old school” wine I’ve always kind of thought Dunn was as new school in production as it gets, working backwards to a lower ABV. Stony Hill is now nearly $200 a bottle, but that’s falling into stock good wine category, as I mentioned above so can’t bitch too much about that. I’ll have to score some and check in. I’ve not had a bottle in ages.

There’s Montelena Estate Cab, which is available in the $130-150 range, right around 14% alcohol (the 2016 was 14.1%), and sees 40% new oak

Having said that, I recently chatted with Alex MacDonald about this very specific issue: given a choice between a 14.5% Napa cab that’s had nothing done to it and a 13.8% that’s been watered back & acidified (or had the spinning cone treatment), he’d pick the first because it’s truer to its origins. I’m inclined to agree

[Dav3_Dyr0ff]

The problem with the article is that the stated thesis was that prices are falling and the cited evidence then consisted of one reference to a single price report followed by a bunch of “they don’t make 'em like they used to” grumbling. It may be true (or may not) that prices are falling, and it may be true (or may not) that they don’t make 'em like they used to (and that the old way was better), but finding a couple of guys who believe the latter to be true does not prove that the former is true. I expected to see a bunch of examples of unsold grapes, or grapes/finished wine that had to be dropped in price before it would sell, given the stated thesis, and bupkis.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Napa has been off my radar for years, but occasionally somebody will put a wine into a tasting that makes me think that there is plenty of great wine if I only knew where to find them. I do buy Togni and Corison, and tasted a Macdonald recently which I thought was superb. The cost of experimentation is high. So please keep the suggestions for more classic wines coming.