cali pinots from light to heavy-a list?

[e_chin]

Love the topic. I agree with Joe as it depends on V and V but only slightly as I think movement is only slightly by a small degree.

A new one for me today was Onward Hawkeye Ranch. I see it as a Light Middle weight.

[R_Roberts]

Agree with everything so far. Couple more not yet mentioned: Calera, which I’d put on the lighter side. Haven’t had Kistler in many years, but they used to be on the heavier side.

@Chris Seiber

I know he’s asking for the middle, but one of the A-listers on the “lighter side” both in terms of quality and value should be Arcadian.

Did they stop making pinots after 2009?

[George_Tita]

No one here drinks Cobb? Definitely on the lighter end, in my opinion.

[Rick.T]

Add Ojai somewhere in the middle but my experience is with the Solomon Hills PN. For some producers it’s hard to lump all of their bottlings’ into any one spot in this list.

[Robert_Grenley]

@NoahR

I am struggling with this as I try to adjust my palate and figure out exactly what I like. I don’t understand why the original poster uses burgundy as the touchstone for light as, in my little experience, every good burg I’ve had (and these are all PC not GC level) has serious body and depth and richness and not just a pretty nose. I would love to know which of these Cali pinots has a comparable richness, tannic backbone and body to a PC Gevrey-Chambertin or even Vosne-Romanee. The fruit and the acid I’m much less concerned about. Help!

Maybe the problem is that the scale originally proposed extending from Burgundian on one end of the spectrum to Syrah-like on the other end subsequently changed into a scale from “light” to “heavy”. But IMO degree of relative lightness is not quite the right distinguishing characteristic, although certainly there are CA pinots of more finesse and others of jammy heaviness. Although most critics stress that one cannot expect CA Pinot or OR Pinot to taste like Burgundy, nor should they, but nevertheless many of us who do love Burgundian attributes in their Pinot search for domestic Pinots that display some of these characteristics that we enjoy with this varietal. And the fact that domestic pinots inserted blind into Burgundy tastings can often be confused for Burgundies indicates that these comparisons are not ridiculous.

It seems that the better Burgundies have the depth and concentration of fruit, but you see or experience this through a veil of balancing acidity and a minerality that adds complexity to the flavors that are not just about the fruit. The effect is often one of elegance or finesse but not lightness…more light on its feet, perhaps, while being powerful. The other end of the spectrum would be some domestic pinots that are all about the fruit, the riper the better, where concentration becomes jamminess and an almost port-like warmth and sweetness. Not my style, but of course many do appreciate these wines…just not usually Burgundy lovers.

I think the listings nevertheless were pretty accurate, where Burgundian-like wines were described as lighter but were really “light on their feet” and generally wines of concentrated fruit but lower alcohols, while the other end of the spectrum, the heavier wines, were wines that were often all about the forward ripe fruit, where jamminess was not a sin, and they were generally higher in alcohol.

One thing I would love to hear is whether anyone has found CA or OR vineyard sites and wines that tend to have some of the Burgundian-like minerality, if that is the term (and acidity too, I guess), that is a little harder to come by on this side of the ocean.

[Brady_Daniels]

I agree with Robert. The answers so far seem to be less about body and more about acidity and sweet fruit. For example, I don’t think there is anything light about Rhys, but I would agree that they are more acidic, and less sweet/fruit forward than, say, Sea Smoke.

For lightness/heaviness, I love the analogy of skim milk versus full-fat. And there is nothing skim about Rhys. Another SCM Pinot that I enjoy, McHenry, would better fit that label.

[mark_rudner]

lots of good info above. yes, i suppose i could have worded my question a bit better concerning what i meant by burgundian etc, but it seems most that have posted lists have helped me out quite a bit.

good to see where rm and kutch fall as that seems to be right in my wheelhouse. as those wines don’t show up on lists much around here, i will look for the others that many of you wb’ers have put near the middle.
cheers

[NoahR]

Robert, thanks for the detailed response. Exactly what I needed to hear. Will be in Sonoma this weekend to taste Copain, Sojourn and Williams-Selyem. Hoping to find the power and concentration in “light on its feet” wines at one of those places…

[Corey_N]

@Robert Grenley

One thing I would love to hear is whether anyone has found CA or OR vineyard sites and wines that tend to have some of the Burgundian-like minerality, if that is the term (and acidity too, I guess), that is a little harder to come by on this side of the ocean.

I’m no expert, but that might be a good question for Clark Smith, the wine guy of the week (or whatever it is called). He has discussed minerality in a few of his posts and he also has a connection with Appellation America, which looks for defining characteristics in various sites.

[mark_rudner]

@Corey N.

@Robert Grenley

One thing I would love to hear is whether anyone has found CA or OR vineyard sites and wines that tend to have some of the Burgundian-like minerality, if that is the term (and acidity too, I guess), that is a little harder to come by on this side of the ocean.

I’m no expert, but that might be a good question for Clark Smith, the wine guy of the week (or whatever it is called). He has discussed minerality in a few of his posts and he also has a connection with Appellation America, which looks for defining characteristics in various sites.

there MUST be some opinions on this floating around…

[Adam_Lee]

The minerality question is one that I’d love to know more about. I think our 2012 Cargasacchi Pinot Noir has a minerality to it. Not something we’ve particularly gotten before from this vineyard but it is there, IMO. Would love to learn why.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Merrill_Lindquist]

@Humberto Dorta

Seasmoke in the middle/bigger in the last few years, bevans on the bigger side, hartfort court in the bigger side, aston bigger loring bigger, radio coteau smack in the middle, walter hansel middle/bigger, belle glos middle, donum middle/bigger, Siduri middle/bigger, martinelli middle, brewer clifton bigger, sojourn middle…agree with above
Disclaimer: these are all generalizations and to my palate. There are always vintage and vineyard exceptions for example the 2004 walter hansel north slope was a beast. Same for some roars and seasmokes.

I am not extremely well-versed in Pinot, but your list, Humberto, seems (to me) to be understated. My thoughts, based on what I have had, are Bevan-very big, Belle Glos-big, Martinelli-big, and so forth. So just move your assessments up a notch or 2 to the right !

[Joshua_Kates]

I agree it’s a difficult set of oppositions to pin down, and has as much to do with acidity and a certain Burgundian tautness, such that Rhys or Calera, which tend to be medium-bodied, nevertheless seem very Burgundian (especially the former). Peay, so far unmentioned, I think is also Burgundian in both senses, light in weight, as some, though by no means all Burgundies are. And Anthill, too, can have that glasslke delicacy (and purity) found in a good Volnay. Not having yet tried some that those here favor–Ceritas, Arnot-Roberts–I can’t speak to them. Rochioli, which I enjoy, is however its own thing (as were some of the 07 Sea Smokes, which I happened to get in on).
There are others, however, like Kutch or the little Copain that I have drunk, Sojourn from a while backm that nevertheless to date don’t hit that same place for me, too smooth in the wrong way, maybe not enough acidity…I can’t fully pin it down, despite their being obviously finely made. (I own a good bit of Kutch, and I want to give them more time and the 2012’s.)
Minerality I find touches of in the Peay Scallop Shelf, and also some Calera (haven’t drunk enough Rhys to know).
Finally, I agree with Merrill: at least the Martinelli that I had is way big; donum too–Hansel, not so much, I think.

[Joseph_MR]

In my somewhat limited experience, I would agree with Joshua and Merrill’s comments. The Martinelli pinot I tried was very big. Anthill Farms Demuth- delicate, Tina Marie slightly fleshier. Nice, relatively transparent balance of acid, fruit, earth, oak and whole cluster stems in the Anthill wines. Peay style is more about greater purity and depth of fruit with forest floor and piney far Sonoma Coast notes in the background, with less obtrusive oak and minimal/no whole cluster character. Both of these wines have a bright quality to the fruit that I have found less in the Rhys pinots that I have tried- several vintages of the Family Farm plus several Alesia pinots, and the 2006 Alpine pinot. These have a drier, spicy, more velvety but less juicy(IMVHO) quality presumably from higher percentage whole cluster fermentation(?). Along with the greater stem aspect, I also get more earth and dry extract character that some may interpret as minerality, or "Burgundian.’ The Rhys wines I would call middleweight, but with great intensity and persistence. More of a grand vin
style demanding patience; somewhat austere when young. I wonder if the drier finish on the Rhys is due to higher pH from using whole cluster fermentation, or a
Santa Cruz terroir characteristic… anybody?

[Robert_Dentice]

Mark - No matter how light a California Pinot is it will still taste like it is from California and not from Burgundy. I poured two Pinots for some visiting French wine geeks a Cameron and a Rhys (I think it was around 12% abv) and the French immediately pegged them as new world. The morale of the story is that a California Pinot should taste like it is from California.

[Joe_S]

Nothing wrong with being a nice wine from California, but your example was not exactly a blind test wi a couple burgs nestled in. I am one to never say never unless it can be proven 100% without exception. As a matter of fact, i have had a few burgs which i would not have necessarily pegged as burgundy. (JMHO)

[mark_rudner]

i suppose i should have left any mention of burgundy out of my op, and just kept it to attemting to classify cali pinots from light to heavy. be that as it may, lots of good info here.