I agree with this. I’ve bought excellent producers’ Bourgogne rouge and villages recently for less than the lauded value “appellation” wines of board favorite CA producers lately. I’ve also bought from the CA producers, so we’ll see how they compare. I’ve bought 1ers for less than the svd’s of those CA producers. For me I buy burgs knowing I’ll enjoy them immensely. I buy the CA wines for two reasons: first, I know that others will love them when I open them, and second, I hope that I’ll find some I like as much as the burgs. I guess that since I came to burgundy too late to ever afford the top, most sought after GCs I don’t have it in my mind that burgundy must be those wines. For those who did, I think that it affects their idea of value in the region.
Re. Oregon v. CA. I think that OR is more likely to produce a wine with too much acid or insufficient fruit. I think that CA is more likely to produce an alcoholic fruit bomb. I think this is true even in wines of both regions that others think are balanced. However, I have probably truly enjoyed more OR PN than CA.
The emergence of lighter-styled, more nuanced and balanced California Pinot Noir is relatively recent.
In addition, I know that the three wines in the OP (and others like Littorai, Sandhi, etc.) are not widely available in wine shops.
I have sampled a good number of village and Bourgogne Rouge wines.
The question was asked above by Sherri and Sebastian. What is the level of familiarity with the specific appellation and SVD wines of Copain, Rhys, Ceritas, etc.?
?Askold have you sampled Rhys and Ceritas and Copain?[/quote]
Some Rhys and plenty of Copain. I find Copain ok but not equivalent in quality to Burgundies at the price point. Not enough experience regarding all Rhys different vineyards. My impression was similar to premier cru or better village for the ones I had in terms of quality rather than taste. Ceritas just one bottle but not at a tasting or someplace where I could taste analytically (I was in no shape to make any judgement at the time). Agreed I should try more Ceritas to have a better understanding.
Would love some specific suggestions, Sebastian. I’ve really enjoyed much of the Burgundy I have tried, but it’s been far more expensive than Rhys and Ceritas, which I really enjoy, so in all sincerity, I welcome recommendations in the $50-70 price range that are available at retail. Thank you.
The only way you can assume that there would be a surprise would be if you think that people don’t know their own palates.
I’ve had several bottles of both of those vintages of Ceritas and Bearwallow. I won’t be a repeat buyer because I find their sweet fruit unappealing, even though the wines are extremely well made and polished.
In Oregon, I’d take Scott Paul (La Paulee at $36 and his Audrey at $65) all day over Bearwallow/Ceritas. Also Arterberry Maresh (at around 55).
Over both these, I’d take the usual suspects mentioned above in Burgundy (Pavelot, Prudhon, Lafouge, ROty) etc. But I suspect someone who likes the Rhys/Costalina wouldn’t immediately be drawn to the high acid and relatively subtle fruit of those wines. Better “crossover” producers would be Sylvain Pataille in Marsannay and David Croix in Beaune. Those wins have a polished, fruity appeal that may resonate with CA pinot lovers. I had a 2009 Domaine Des Croix Beaune Pertuisots last week that, for my palate, outperforms the CA pinots by a country mile. It cost me $44. BTW, that Bearwallow, if you are not on the list, will cost you $89 at K and L.
I happen to like and buy both California Pinot Noir and Red Burgundy. Many of my favorite producers and wines in Burgundy have now gone past my comfort zone. I no longer buy Mugneret-Gibourg, Roumier, Chevillon, Mugnier and many of the Jadot wines that I used to buy on a regular basis. It is purely a factor of price. Every once in a while I splurge on a bottle or two, much in the way that I splurge on the very small allocation of Rhys Skyline and Swan Terrace that I receive.
As for finding new favorites, there is no “new” Mugneret-Gibourg just as there is no new Bob Dylan. Same goes for The other producers/wines that I used to buy on a regular basis. Sure there are plenty of nice wines out there, but I like what I like. If I can’t get them I will drink other wines that I like.
You are not going to find Domaine Des Croix Beaune Pertuisots for less than $60 now. Interestingly, the most recent Ct note on this wine compares it to a Rhys(https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1141314). Regardless, I agree with you on the Bearwallow. I think the Alpine and Family Farm would suit your palate a bit better.
Sherri, Under $45, Audoin Marsannay can be quite nice. Roty Marsannay is more consistent IMHO and similarly priced. $60 - $70 is Domaine Marc Roy Gevrey territory. There are a couple of Pavelots, Jean-Marc and Hugues are the better known with consistent SLBs. Domaine Pavelot (Luc and Lise) offer better QPR from Pernand but more hit and miss. Jadot offers consistent Beaune Reds (village and 1ers) that can be found on sale within your price range and cheaper (Ursules being my fav). Don’t know anything about Robert Gibourg but I do like the Pierre Amiot Moreys…with the Ruchots 1er and Millandes around your top $. The list goes on and on.
Burgundy requires a TON of legwork, trial and error. Spending $50 or even $500 for a bottle comes with no guarantees. It’s a siren song obsession. You better find someone to tie up your money and credit cards if you intend to do a detailed exploration.
Katrina, some people love Cali PN, be it an IPOB poster child, full-throttle KB or something in between. Every year I re-discover that the “Pinot Universe” continues to expand.
Richard, I agree completely, which is why I said “for my palate” and why I think these kind of comparisons are just silly. I disagree when people say “you might try a CA pinot blind and be surprised.” No matter how “IPOB-y” it is, I wouldn’t mistake it for a Burgundy. Though I very much know that many people would prefer the CA pinot.
Sebastian: I agree with you that the Alpine is a much better wine than the Bearwallow … I haven’t tried any of my Family Farms yet. Maybe tonight.
Cool thing about PN is it’s so terroir driven. More so than any other grape IMO. It’s the one wine (with a few exceptions) I’m willing to pay more for a single vyd.
Cool thing about PN is it’s a good white wine substitute (I don’t drink much white except bubbles)
Bad thing about PN is escalating prices.
Spotting Cali PNs (or at least new-world character) used to be easier, but the playing field continues to change. There have been riper vintage OR PNs and Burgs that struck me as Californian. Is the reverse impossible? When you throw Pinot-like curve balls in to the mix, I struggle to confidently declare whether certain wines are positively Pinot! Blind tastings continue to remind me how my perceptions and preconceptions may not be so precisely aligned.
I’m certainly a lover of CA PN, but Burgundy is Burgundy. It might not be as easy to find the best Burg deals, but I have definitely found Burgundies that can compete and even beat CA under $70.
Of course, there is a big difference in the wines as Burgs will at their best have a much gentler and evenly balanced palate. CA, even at its most elegant, has a far richer and powerful texture.
At a guess my cellar is fairly evenly divided between the two.
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