Claudine Wines (private label / negociant) discussion

[Chris_Crutchfield]

Having watched the DN phenomena here, I’d say there are several key factors - a few customers have acted as nonstop cheerleaders for each release and have very effectively built a feeding frenzy (tulip mania) around Cam and the releases. Critics are shamed, actual experts are dismissed and the cheerleaders keep the pulse going much like happens with any fad product. Several (most?) of these cheerleaders have mentioned that they don’t know a great deal about wine but have declared DN wines a success even before receiving their shipments. And they have collected tens of cases of these wines even knowing they are “too young” to evaluate properly.

This sort of consumer cultism is hard to replicate — and it seems like Mr. Rutherford has chosen a very different path towards building his business. If you look at the DN discussions, for each release they are built around guessing the source of the wine as if bulk juice purchased is the same as white labeled wines made by the individual winery — and the big driver of the sale seems to be “I’m getting $50 wine for only $15 a bottle!” The appeal of getting a “deal” overtakes the other factors in the purchase (winemaker expertise, ABV, etc).

It seems that Mr Rutherford instead buys finished wines, made by their original source. No one person can be expert at making every type of wine from every type of terroir — Claudine’s reliance on the winemakers who actually know the product and have experience with it strikes me as the most important differentiator.

To me that is the difference between generic bargains and wine I look forward to drinking. I have never had either DN or Claudine wines but that difference would matter to me if I was in the market. I have certainly had cheap wine when out with colleagues for a happy hour or something but for my own purchasing, I buy from a tiny group of lists and on Berserker Day. This year during BD, I purchased a really nice selection of wines made by 7 really talented winemakers (including Larry) with years of experience with their locale and their varieties. I don’t normally measure those purchases this way since I buy wines I (and my friends) love but given the price centric discussions recently, I did a bit of math and my average BD bottle price was $14. Now that’s my type of “deal.”

Siun, that’s a rather unfair characterization of de Negoce and its customers as some sort of mob of unsophisticated rubes. It certainly doesn’t do the rest of your argument any favors if you start by making it in bad faith.

[Chris_Seiber]

Now that whatever intro deal they offered to WB has come and gone, what is the avenue to becoming a Claudine customer? Do you just go on the site and pick wines to buy at the listed prices, or is there more to it that that?

[Toby_P]

Having watched the DN phenomena here, I’d say there are several key factors - a few customers have acted as nonstop cheerleaders for each release and have very effectively built a feeding frenzy (tulip mania) around Cam and the releases. Critics are shamed, actual experts are dismissed and the cheerleaders keep the pulse going much like happens with any fad product. Several (most?) of these cheerleaders have mentioned that they don’t know a great deal about wine but have declared DN wines a success even before receiving their shipments. And they have collected tens of cases of these wines even knowing they are “too young” to evaluate properly.

This sort of consumer cultism is hard to replicate — and it seems like Mr. Rutherford has chosen a very different path towards building his business. If you look at the DN discussions, for each release they are built around guessing the source of the wine as if bulk juice purchased is the same as white labeled wines made by the individual winery — and the big driver of the sale seems to be “I’m getting $50 wine for only $15 a bottle!” The appeal of getting a “deal” overtakes the other factors in the purchase (winemaker expertise, ABV, etc).

It seems that Mr Rutherford instead buys finished wines, made by their original source. No one person can be expert at making every type of wine from every type of terroir — Claudine’s reliance on the winemakers who actually know the product and have experience with it strikes me as the most important differentiator.

To me that is the difference between generic bargains and wine I look forward to drinking. I have never had either DN or Claudine wines but that difference would matter to me if I was in the market. I have certainly had cheap wine when out with colleagues for a happy hour or something but for my own purchasing, I buy from a tiny group of lists and on Berserker Day. This year during BD, I purchased a really nice selection of wines made by 7 really talented winemakers (including Larry) with years of experience with their locale and their varieties. I don’t normally measure those purchases this way since I buy wines I (and my friends) love but given the price centric discussions recently, I did a bit of math and my average BD bottle price was $14. Now that’s my type of “deal.”

Siun, that’s a rather unfair characterization of de Negoce and its customers as some sort of mob of unsophisticated rubes. It certainly doesn’t do the rest of your argument any favors if you start by making it in bad faith.

Seriously, the only person doing the shaming here is you Siun…just an incredibly condescending post. No critics are being “shamed” on the DN board, and there are no “nonstop cheerleaders for each release” - please point to the recent releases and all the nonstop cheerleading. Many ppl have recently posted their thoughts of DN wines, including plenty of neutral/negative ones, and not one has been anything close to “shamed”. I don’t know what your issue is with DN but it clearly bothers you to a great extent. If you’re not a fan of the business model or the product, that’s cool, it’s definitely not for everyone. No need to criticize those to whom it does appeal. And it’s not all or nothing, pretty sure the vast majority of DN customers here are also active purchasers of other wine (including on BD).

[Rohit_B]

IMO claudine is as good, if not better, than the high end WineAccess private labels. Both put dN squarely in last place.

I mean, that ordering roughly mirrors their respective prices (with WineAccess discounts factored in), so not really surprising?

Are you saying a more expensive wine is a better wine?!

[z_hart]

Hey all,

First of all, thanks for the discussion here. I am always hesitant to jump in and come across as overly commercial.

I think there are some basic differences to our model.

First, we are not in competition with de Negoce or anyone else. We are pretty small and our business to based on relationships with a small number of high-end wineries. We are looking for 3-5 barrels (75-125 cases) at a time, not 500+ cases, which allows us to work with smaller producers and truly find their “extra barrels” or excess production.

Second, we are set up to do small orders (1-3 bottles) so you can try the wine without much risk and then come back for the case purchase, which comes with 10% off and free shipping.

Third, we started as a friends and family business only doing ~50 cases a year. We grew because we only did a project with the economics favored our customers. In the back of our mind, we think about the “Costco test.” If you can find a wine of equivalent value at Costco, we aren’t going to do. We want to beat that type of value proposition.

The last thing I will say is that I buy a lot of wine looking for the next target producer. When we approach a winery or winemaker, we want to know that they are the best quality, but that we think there is room for a partnership. We want them to know that we are buyers if the wine is the exact same as what they are putting their own label on.

Thanks for reading and I am always open for more conversation

-Brian

Owner/Founder, Claudine Wines

Brian, thank you for posting the information and background on Claudine in this thread. It was great to hear more about the Company and your model is very different than others that are discussed a lot in here. I will have to buy some Claudine and check them out.

[Brian_Retherford]

Hey everyone,

Always cool to see compliments on our wine - even though we clearly aren’t the growers / winemakers. We are releasing our latest wine tomorrow and unlike previous bottling, we are able to fully give credit to the winemaker. We grabbed 80 cases of some fantastic Syrah made by Joe Davis of Arcadian. This was his Reserve selection, part of the 5 barrels he had planned to release as an homage to his cellarmarster, Don Julio. It was bottled after nearly 34 months in barrel and then bottled with an Arcadian cork, hence the ‘reveal’

Anyway, thought I’d share that here since there is a lot of discussion around our sourcing!

https://www.claudinewines.com/collections/current-offerings/products/2007-stolpman-reserve-syrah-1

[NealW]

Unfortunately I’ve yet to try all of the wines I got when this first came out and am TBD on the new Syrah due to upcoming move.

I have had 4 bottles (Deux, RRV pinot, St Rita pinot (i think) and signature series pinot. All very good but the signature series pinot was incredible and one of my favorite wines this year (have one bottle left to look forward to but sold out now)

[Pat_P]

I went for the 2007 Syrah, sounds like it should be special. The $50 off $179 made it a no brainer for me.

[Luca_Giupponi]

I went for the 2007 Syrah, sounds like it should be special. The $50 off $179 made it a no brainer for me.

Was this a targeted offer you received?

[Pat_P]

The offer was for signing up for their email list when I went to their site.

"Welcome to the Claudine family! You’ve discovered the wine aficionado’s best kept secret. By purchasing surplus barrels from (very) high-end wineries around California, we’re able to deliver top-tier quality at below top-dollar prices.

As a thank you for signing up, enjoy $50 off your first order. Just use promo code 50OFF for $50 off your first order of $179 or more. Discount expires in 30 days."

[David_Buck]

Any one try the Oakville Cab? 2016 OAKVILLE CABERNET SAUVIGNON $42.00

Like the idea it is well integrated now. Cant find any reviews other than Claudine email…

“…opened up to reveal it’s somewhat restrained fruit, but silky-smooth tannins and long finish”

“One of the most food-friendly Cabernets I have had from Napa in a long time”

[Rohit_B]

• 2016 Claudine Cabernet Sauvignon - USA, California, Napa Valley, Oakville (1/30/2022)
  Coravin’d into a glass. This is sealed under DIAM.

I’ll jump to the point. If you want an old school cabernet with a strong nod to Oakville, this is it.

Nose is extremely aromatic. Red earth, leather, dark cherries, little bit of smoke. Palate is full body and mouth filling, slightly glycerin but doesn’t feel heavy. Red berries and cherries, leather, tobacco, good acidic lift. Finish is really nice and carries through the palate. Crushed red earth, leather, cedar, tobacco. Balanced acid that brings back some drying red cherries, dried mushrooms, and some very tannins left to support the structure.

This is fantastic. Restrained, elegant, “old school”, all those descriptors. Strong 91, maybe even a 92 but there is more glycerin in the mouthfeel than I would have liked. I’ll be conservative for now. I only have 1 more bottle, which is a problem I will surely rectify. An absolute mockery of other NDA wines at similar price points.

Drinking really well right now, definitely has another 5-7 years left. (91 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

[ray_ormand]

Have been curious about this wine. Thank you for the detailed note.

[JA_Miller]

Great dialogue here, think I’ll jump in, as I’ve enjoyed Brian’s (Claudine) wines and am also a huge DeNegoce fan…as well as in the industry. Bottomline, these are both excellent companies doing excellent things for the wine consumer. Claudine is aimed considerably higher than most of Cam’s vino, and they present themselves as well, as well as their pricepoints. That said, if you peek in my cellar, you’ll find a sh_tload of DeN wines, as (IMHO) they are the finest QPRs in the biz right now, and many will continue to improve over time. I also like Cam’s palate - it isn’t for everyone, but I liked many of his CH bottlings, and I’m (so far) finding the DeN wines to be even better. Brian, on the other hand, is going for the next tier - you pay more, and you get a much higher “reliability” of outstanding quality…

Honestly, I was kinda stunned by the activity last week on WBeserkers and prices paid…lots of cash out there, obviously, and I’ve seen it in ever-increasing auction prices, much to my dismay, as I love the bargain hunting. Strong stock market and such, all good for the trade. This business is all ebbs and flows, ups and downs…patience is rewarded over time.

Bottomline, both Cam and Brian are doing a great service for both wine consumers (who benefit from attractive pricing and reliable quality, albeit at different pricepoints) and also benefit vineyards/growers, who can’t always find a viable outlet for excess juice or the ever-constricting web of 3-tier distribution and it’s ugly consequences.

[Rohit_B]

Bottomline, both Cam and Brian are doing a great service for both wine consumers (who benefit from attractive pricing and reliable quality, albeit at different pricepoints) and also benefit vineyards/growers, who can’t always find a viable outlet for excess juice or the ever-constricting web of 3-tier distribution and it’s ugly consequences.

Agree completely. In hindsight, my dig at DN was probably premature as the wines weren’t ready for consumption yet. I haven’t had a bad bottle of Claudine or DN yet, meaning it went to the sink.

[Max_S1]

Has anyone been tracking with Claudine? Thoughts?

[Rohit_B]

Opening a 16 Oakville CS tonight actually

[Max_S1]

If you post a note could you tag me?

[Rohit_B]

• 2016 Claudine Cabernet Sauvignon - USA, California, Napa Valley, Oakville (2/18/2023)
  Splash decant, back to bottle for 24h at cellar temp, then into GlasVin Prestige glass.
  
  Very similar experience to my 1/30/22 note.
  
  Dark and intense red color, maybe some edge lightening, no discernible browning to me. Nose of leather, subtle oak, dark cherries, hint of charred smoke earth. Full bodied palate but not heavy. Supple acidity and integrated soft tannins that are still a touch perceptible. Red rocks, cedar, sweet tobacco, maybe leather, maraschino cherries. Finish shows sweet chocolate covered cherries, dried dusty earth, and hint of RS (or at least I think so).
  
  In a good spot. Dark fruit and berries are still present and just showing some aging signs. Tannins are integrated nicely with supple acidic lift.
  
  Drink now with a 1-2h decant or cellar this comfortably for another 5-7 years. The 24h decant was for "fun." Staying at 91 but could be higher if this was fully dry. (91 points)

Posted from CellarTracker

[Max_S1]

Thanks Rohit!