The reason why this is allocated and harder to source in France.
French restaurants get first dibs and stumble over each other at every releases. They must know a thing or 2 about the good stuff.
TimF
July 11, 2020, 12:39pm
22
Who makes the second best Cab Franc in the Loire Valley?
Baudry.
Iād actually say they are the best overall producer given the quality and the breadth of their stable of wines.
Run-up like Juge, the market better appreciating the incredible quality of this winery plus the anticipated changing of the guard. Given that coupled with the current economic uncertainty, and Iād be surprised if 2015 comes out higher. I expect it to be around the same plus maybe 5%. Pure speculation, of course. I will buy again around there, part of it being curiosity.
For āLe Closā, in the UK:
2009 - 50.00 GBP per bottle
Given the excitement over 2015 and the fact that itās the last vintage with an undisputed Foucault connection, Iām betting on more than 5%! But letās seeā¦
And thatās where I fall as well. How many bottles of Grezeaux can I get for one Rougeard?
Granted my negative view of Rougeard is lately influenced by the decidedly mediocre showing of the 2012 Clos. Total waste of money.
Run-up like Juge, the market better appreciating the incredible quality of this winery plus the anticipated changing of the guard. Given that coupled with the current economic uncertainty, and Iād be surprised if 2015 comes out higher. I expect it to be around the same plus maybe 5%. Pure speculation, of course. I will buy again around there, part of it being curiosity.
For āLe Closā, in the UK:
2009 - 50.00 GBP per bottle
Given the excitement over 2015 and the fact that itās the last vintage with an undisputed Foucault connection, Iām betting on more than 5%! But letās seeā¦
Wow, crazy pricing on the 2014!
I paid $145 USD. I think I paid $200-$225 for the Poyeaux. I passed on the Bourg at $325.
Greg_K
July 11, 2020, 3:13pm
27
My personal favorite, and the one I buy, is Thierry Germain. But then, Iām not a huge cab franc guy. Wonderful mixing grape though. So thereās only so much money Iām willing to āwasteā.
My personal favorite, and the one I buy, is Thierry Germain. But then, Iām not a huge cab franc guy. Wonderful mixing grape though. So thereās only so much money Iām willing to āwasteā.
Thierry supposedly has been heavily influenced by Charly Foucault . That, coupled with the exceptional vineyards he has recently added to his stable of wines, will over time put him on par or very close to Baudry. The āClos de lāEchelierā and āMĆ©moiresā cuvees, the matter with vines around 115 years of age, are really worth following. Prices are creeping up fast, however.
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Greg_K
July 11, 2020, 8:42pm
29
My personal favorite, and the one I buy, is Thierry Germain. But then, Iām not a huge cab franc guy. Wonderful mixing grape though. So thereās only so much money Iām willing to āwasteā.
Thierry supposedly has been heavily influenced by Charly Foucault . That, coupled with the exceptional vineyards he has recently added to his stable of wines, will over time put him on par or very close to Baudry. The āClos de lāEchelierā and āMĆ©moiresā cuvees, the matter with vines around 115 years of age, are really worth following. Prices are creeping up fast, however.
Yes, I buy the Memoires. Very good wines, imho. To be quite honest, if Iām really in a Cab Franc mood I tend to go for older Figeac.
And thatās where I fall as well. How many bottles of Grezeaux can I get for one Rougeard?
Granted my negative view of Rougeard is lately influenced by the decidedly mediocre showing of the 2012 Clos. Total waste of money.
I love Rougeard, but Iām a dude on a budget.
Run-up like Juge, the market better appreciating the incredible quality of this winery plus the anticipated changing of the guard. Given that coupled with the current economic uncertainty, and Iād be surprised if 2015 comes out higher. I expect it to be around the same plus maybe 5%. Pure speculation, of course. I will buy again around there, part of it being curiosity.
For āLe Closā, in the UK:
2009 - 50.00 GBP per bottle
Given the excitement over 2015 and the fact that itās the last vintage with an undisputed Foucault connection, Iām betting on more than 5%! But letās seeā¦
Wow, crazy pricing on the 2014!
I paid $145 USD. I think I paid $200-$225 for the Poyeaux. I passed on the Bourg at $325.
Wow, I was offered the Clos at $140, it didnāt really cross my mind to buy them, thatās insaneā¦ In the $300ās for the Bourgā¦ I was offered the Blanc for $190ā¦ good for them but shocking overall.
Good thing I still own a bunch, Iāll shift to Collierā¦
PCLIN
July 12, 2020, 6:58am
32
I used to buy Rougeard as a cheaper alternative to Cheval Blanc, now Le Bourg is almost as expensive as CB.
Just wanted to thank the participants for a very interesting read (including the links).
Pricing went above my comfort level with the 2009 vintage and I havenāt really followed the estate for a while so most of this was news to me.
Plus 1
And I love Raffault, Germain, and Breton as well.
And thatās where I fall as well. How many bottles of Grezeaux can I get for one Rougeard?
Granted my negative view of Rougeard is lately influenced by the decidedly mediocre showing of the 2012 Clos. Total waste of money.
I think this kind of encapsulates why it matters what the members of this board used to pay for Rougeard.
At $30, I drank a lot of Rougeard. When a bottle was ok, good, or really good, instead of amazing, I didnāt sweat it. Plenty of them were amazing. And if I had to say whether Baudry, Rougeard, or Breton was my favorite, my honest answer would be āto close to tellā.
Increased global demand often starts with stories about the wines, rather than the wines themselves. Rayas, for me personally, is a great example of this. And as stories grow, they often elevate very good wineries to a status that isnāt really realistic. The wines shift from really great wines to mythical. I hate the term āunicornā wines. And part of that is that when the story moves to myth, the tail is wagging the dog. I donāt get to just enjoy the bottle for what it is, it has to be BEYOND ALL OTHER WINES regionally speaking. And while my last time tasting Rougeard was a ridiculously good 2010, in any region with a challenging enough climate to make winemaking interesting, consistent greatness is not realistic. Nor is the idea that one winery is the āMichael Jordanā of the region.
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Increased global demand often starts with stories about the wines, rather than the wines themselves. Rayas, for me personally, is a great example of this. And as stories grow, they often elevate very good wineries to a status that isnāt really realistic. The wines shift from really great wines to mythical. I hate the term āunicornā wines. And part of that is that when the story moves to myth, the tail is wagging the dog. I donāt get to just enjoy the bottle for what it is, it has to be BEYOND ALL OTHER WINES regionally speaking. And while my last time tasting Rougeard was a ridiculously good 2010, in any region with a challenging enough climate to make winemaking interesting, consistent greatness is not realistic. Nor is the idea that one winery is the āMichael Jordanā of the region.
Great post, Marcus. I totally agree with this. The huge chase for these wines (I wonāt use the terrible āUā word) makes them not only not values, but is often filled with disappointment if they are anything less than other wines from the area. Gonon is a good example of this. I think the wines are really excellent, but they arenāt THAT much better than comparable wines from Faury, Monier/Perreol, etc. yet the pricing is silly now.
Gonon is a good example of this. I think the wines are really excellent, but they arenāt THAT much better than comparable wines from Faury, Monier/Perreol, etc. yet the pricing is silly now.
For my palate, Gonon is far better than these references wines.
Iām not sure why it matters what folks on the board used to buy a wine for. Rougeard has been underappreciated for years, especially in the US, like Rayas decades ago. Looking at my notes the 2010 Poyeux was offered to me for roughly half the price of the current release Poyeux (~$190). A steep increase, sure, but not nearly as much as many other wines during the same stretch of timeā¦ e.g. Gonon. Thereās now global demand for these wines, so theyāre just being priced at what the market will bear. Heck, Rougeard has always been easier to find stateside than in France.
I have the misfortune of having bought single bottles of the following, with original price and CT auction valuation listed:
2005 Rougeard Clos ($48/$280)
Now, one might say that is good fortune, but the reality is at current values, these are basically too expensive to drink!
If I drink them, then I miss out of $1k of profit. But if I donāt, Iāll never have the opportunity to taste them again.
And if they are anything short of transcendent, Iāll be kicking myself for not selling!
Greg_K
July 12, 2020, 10:37pm
39
Iām not sure why it matters what folks on the board used to buy a wine for. Rougeard has been underappreciated for years, especially in the US, like Rayas decades ago. Looking at my notes the 2010 Poyeux was offered to me for roughly half the price of the current release Poyeux (~$190). A steep increase, sure, but not nearly as much as many other wines during the same stretch of timeā¦ e.g. Gonon. Thereās now global demand for these wines, so theyāre just being priced at what the market will bear. Heck, Rougeard has always been easier to find stateside than in France.
I have the misfortune of having bought single bottles of the following, with original price and CT auction valuation listed:
2005 Rougeard Clos ($48/$280)
Now, one might say that is good fortune, but the reality is at current values, these are basically too expensive to drink!
If I drink them, then I miss out of $1k of profit. But if I donāt, Iāll never have the opportunity to taste them again.
And if they are anything short of transcendent, Iāll be kicking myself for not selling!
Itās possible, I suppose, that people are paying 300-350 for Gonon at auction, but are you sure thatās not the VV? You can get a bottle those retail for @135 in my experience. Theyāre not that rare - itās not a tiny production.
Iām not sure why it matters what folks on the board used to buy a wine for. Rougeard has been underappreciated for years, especially in the US, like Rayas decades ago. Looking at my notes the 2010 Poyeux was offered to me for roughly half the price of the current release Poyeux (~$190). A steep increase, sure, but not nearly as much as many other wines during the same stretch of timeā¦ e.g. Gonon. Thereās now global demand for these wines, so theyāre just being priced at what the market will bear. Heck, Rougeard has always been easier to find stateside than in France.
I have the misfortune of having bought single bottles of the following, with original price and CT auction valuation listed:
2005 Rougeard Clos ($48/$280)
Now, one might say that is good fortune, but the reality is at current values, these are basically too expensive to drink!
If I drink them, then I miss out of $1k of profit. But if I donāt, Iāll never have the opportunity to taste them again.
And if they are anything short of transcendent, Iāll be kicking myself for not selling!
Itās possible, I suppose, that people are paying 300-350 for Gonon at auction, but are you sure thatās not the VV? You can get a bottle those retail for @135 in my experience. Theyāre not that rare - itās not a tiny production.
Iām just using the Auction Value from CellarTracker, without serious investigation of the data.
6 or 12 months ago the Rougeards were running $200/$300 and the Gonons were more like $150. Which seems more plausible.
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