The guys in my tasting group, who were mostly in their 60s at the time, asked the same question about the 2000s. Twenty years from now people will ask the same thing about the 2040 wines.
Glad to read your comments on the Langoa, I found a few bottles for £60 each the other day and snapped them up. Any advice on how long I should resist before grabbing my corkscrew?
because it hasn’t happened yet? Because the most recent vintages taste different (more worked and slick tannins) than 2000 did when it was young? Because not all vintages develop that way? Why would you be certain of something that is a decade or more in the future?
I also wonder if 2005 will develop as gracefully…we’ll see, in any case (I stopped buying with 2016 but do have 2015s and 2016s, so I will see as well).
I always have difficulty with vintage comparisons on “which is best”. I think 2005 is very hard to assess right now, the big left banks still need 10+ years, Pomerol is more tannic than normal to me, and St Em is a complete disaster. Now that said, I do think it’s a great vintage for the long haul. The only St Em that I currently own is Magdelaine, and based on the bottle I recently popped, it also needs 10+ years.
I think 2016 is a better overall vintage. And I say that begrudgingly, as at 55, I’ve tried to stop buying new vintages. I’m buying more and more of it these days. I disagree totally with Jeff about 2015 and 2009, these vintages are generally more ripe than I prefer. While I have not tried any 2018, I would be cautious. I am even finding some of my beloved Chinons and Beaujolais too ripe in this solar vintage. I would not buy 2018 without trying. I think these ripe vintages are dangerous because they seem to be the poster child vintages for the critics and their blatherings (not including Jeff in that disparagement, but he likes them as well).
Based on what I feel now, I’d rank these vintages in the top of the last 20+ vintages, in this order:
2016
2000
2014
2005
*1998 Pomerol
I think in 5-10 years, 2005 could surpass 14 and 00, but I will wait and see. I own more 2014 than any other vintage.
We are in synch until you reached the ranking part. Ranking these youngsters is a bridge too far for me. But if you are going to rank AND to throw 1998 Right Bank in there (traditional St Ems are killer), you better move 1998 up. I have preferred all the 1998 RBs I can think of to their 2000 siblings.
Yea I debated not putting in a ranking.
I freakin love 98 right banks, but the ranking was vintages as a whole. I’d put 98 RBs, like you, over all those vintages. Now that said, it’s partly because they are so intoxicating right now, so in the zone. I have recently had VCC, Trotanoy, Magdelaine and Rotebeauf. I bought more of all. I have a lone Petrus staring at me, but don’t know when to open it.
Back to your point about backfilling, I have said the same thing before, I’d much rather backfill from these killer vintages then buy new releases, many of which are basically priced the same. It is almost silly.
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This is a complete joke at this point. Unless we’re expanding the 100-point scale to like 120 points, then the people proclaiming “greatest ever” now after dropping 100-point scores like candy over the '05s/'09s/'10s are either bullshitting now or were bullshitting then.
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Yes… I do the same and it also works for me…but in degree centigrades… so that avoids going over 100 points range… so far and fingers crossed… but this explains why I am more conservative than Jeff in my ratings (not that anybody pays attention…)
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Should I drink or hold these? I’m curious what the experts think.
2005 Château Corbin St. Émilion Grand Cru (France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru)
2005 Château Giscours (France, Bordeaux, Médoc, Margaux)
Why am I certain? Because the terroir does not change and that is what really makes the wine. As for riper vintages, people have been making those comments since the beginning of the modern era. I am sure the same thing was said about 1921, 1929, 1947, 1959, 1982, 1989, 2000, 2009, 2015 etc…
Mark - re your original question I basically agree with Galloni. In 67 PM zoom tastings in the last year, when comparing 2005, 2009, 2010, generally - 2005s came across as a bit awkward and disjointed - time will iron out those difficulties, but the 09 and 10s came across as much more accomplished that the 2005s…and sometimes the 2016s, a Schwarzenneggerian vintage, but one which is going through an awkward phase in some cases. The revelation was the quality of the 2009s, which some had written off as too-Napa like. I am pretty sure that 2009, 2010 and 2016 have moved the bar higher from 2005, which is notable for the density of the mid palate delivery. The problem Bordeaux has now is with heat and alcohol, as we have seen in the 2018 and 2019 vintages. Solutions include picking earlier (au revolr Monsieur Rolland), increasing yields and ditching the optical sorting machines to get more green matter back in the mix.
I know we’ve texted about this from time to time also, but I’m still a bit astonished on how much you love 2016 and 2014, also wondering how you can fairly compare them when they are SO young at this point. 2005 was awesome on release, then entered this ‘whatever’ phase it is in. 2000 would be top of the last 20 vintages from most Bordeaux lovers, though I have little experience with your fave 2016 as I’m sitting on them, all in long term storage…but…I did bring home one ‘16 Calon Segur so I’m going to decant that now, though 4 hours probably not enough. Will see what all the fuss is about
I don’t know the guy, but I’m seriously disheartened by my fellow berserkers’ responses to him. He’s old (87) and he lives in an assisted living facility. It seems almost certain that he has some form of dementia, likely Alzheimer’s.
I’ve watched my mom descend into Alzheimer’s for the past 3 years, first slowly and then with increasing rapidity. I’ve given over the last 9 months of my life to caring for her, since COVID has made assisted living a terrible option. The guy’s fixations, the clinging at vestiges of logical argument, the repeated posts on social media - they’re exactly the same behaviors as hers, only about wine. It’s a bewildering condition, absolutely terrifying to the person who suffers from it, and an unbelievable stress to the loved ones around them.
The level of self-satisfied ridiculing of the guy is pretty sickening. It’s like a pack of schoolyard children going after a kid with special needs.
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Ian, I have the greatest respect for Schwarzenegger but I hope 2016 Bordeaux wines do not exhibit the same kind of body…errrh building
What do you mean by this?
Yeah, I’ve never understood this concept that because wines are riper or more attractive young, that they won’t age well. I can understand that if you really don’t like the young wine, you should probably not count on it aging into something you like. But if you find the young wine attractive and it has a track record of aging well, why would ripeness or alcohol make it develop poorly? Historically those factors allow wines to age longer and better.
These vintages are so great that Ive been buying '04 '01 '97 '00 '98 (righties) and '96’s 
Oh and even some '99’s
First off, I’m very, very sorry to hear about your mother. That sounds like an incredibly difficult situation and I wish nothing but the best for both of you.
Second, I absolutley hear where you’re coming from and completely understand why this would trigger you (and rightfully so), but I don’t think Jason’s little joke, or me agreeing it was funny is anything at all like a pack of schoolyard kids going after someone with special needs. I’ve wished the guy well on multiple threads, but if our few posts here did unfortunately come across worse than I intended them to, then I sincerely apologize.
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I agree and want to express the same sentiment. I tried to engage RTLP respectfully and substantively but that wasn’t possibly either because he has neurodegenerative issues or he really is a troll. I can’t tell. I certainly didn’t get into with him.
Antoine’s post inspired my cheekiness. I admit it was to get a laugh although in all seriousness I love cool vintage Bordeaux and have serious doubts about hot vintage Bordeaux where alcohols are historically much higher than classical warm vintages that aged well. (Putting freak 1947, which none of us tasted young, aside.) At bottom, my post was not about poking fun at RTLP but about poking fun at the idea that the warmth of a vintage leads to quality.
I too apologize if my post came off in poor taste rather than just causing people, perhaps even RTLP, to chuckle.
I think there is an important point about millerandage that you raise here and is typically overlooked. Strict rules in sorting practice have dramatically modified the distribution of sugar, acidity, skin thickness and solid to liquid ratio, etc., in the grapes that get crushed. There is no long-term aging experience with Bordeaux wines under the current paradigm. Anyway, time will tell.
Millerandage has been an issue for centuries. It will alter the quantity, not the quality. Green harvesting and stricter sortings have been taking place since 1989. Removing unripe grapes from the Grand Vin can only increase levels of quality, not hurt the wine. Honest, I do not get your points here. And with long-term experience, it is the terroir that makes the wine and that does not change. So I do not understand this stuff about needed more experience with aging either. But that is just me…