2004 is a wreck for reds due to a flaw that showed up in every commune and in nearly every producer’s wines (maybe a few producers outstanding).
2011 is a vintage that is variable. I’ve tasted over 250 wines from the 11 vintage in bottle. I’ve detected GMs in 31 of them.
Different vintages, different issues, to call 11 like 04 as a vintage as a whole is ignorant.
Let your fear of another 04 guide you and you will think 11 is the same based on reading concerns from people who have not actually tasted the &^$&%^$ wines.
The incidence of GMs in 11 is exponentially lower than those of 04.
I only have tried exactly one 2011 so far but it absolutely had 2004 style greenie meanies. I am certainly not going to make a judgment on the vintage based on a single or even dozens of wines but there is no question in my mind that it was greenie meanies in that one bottle. Perhaps it is just a crazy coincidence but given other people are noticing this Im not going to be buying any 2011s for a while.
In that vein, I agree wholeheartedly that we should wait and see before coming to any sort of judgment because its important to remember that 2004s only had this issue subtlety or not at all at first and the problem grew with time. We aren’t going to know for a while how widespread the issue is one way or another so it is premature to condemn the vintage but it also is premature to confidently say that the vintages are not comparable.
I totally am not trying to discount your experience because there is a degree of taste sensitivity at work here (and maybe Im not that sensitive) but Ive tried many hundreds of different 2007s and I have not noticed a single one with 2004 style GMs. I have encountered unripe greenness (standard issue pyrazines) but nothing even remotely like 2004 GMs. Again, I’m not saying you didn’t experience what you did but its interesting that our experiences are so different.
I wonder if we are both using the term “greenie meanies” but actually talking about different things. From me experience, the character in 2004s tastes and smells very different than the pyrazines that normally come from under ripeness.
Berry what I am saying is that I’m interested in exact wines that have the flaw.
On the sensitivity scale, I abhor GM and am extremely sensitive. I will post my notes from a recent large 11 tasting to provide a reference for whose wines have GM and whose don’t based on my experience.
But already I can say that 11 & 04 vintages are quite different just after bottling.
I’m not ready to make the exception the rule. Concern is one thing but paranoia based on a previous negative experience is quite different.
04 took about two years after bottling before it got really bad. I remember tasting flights of 04 at a local shop and thinking they were OK, and bought some. Then they turned into evil green alien juice from Mars, to the point where I could smell them from across a large table…
Very. Posters on this board can dump on a vintage and, if they get it right, accept pats on the back from others on the board and, if they get it wrong, walk away without consequence. The critics, such as Allen Meadows, Steve Tanzer and John Gilman, cannot do that, and, appropriately, take responsibility for what they write. Robert Panzer called it all right in another thread. Potential buyers should taste the wines and make their own call. The 2011s are not moving so fast that they can’t be tasted before buying.
Having stopped buying new vintages I haven’t tasted a single 2011 that I recall, but I still wouldn’t get into a panic. If the price is too high, don’t buy, it’s as simple as that.
People are of course concerned because these wines are expensive, and many found themselves with some expensive 2004’s that they wish they had not bought. Many wine writers do not go back and reassess or discuss the vintages and how they are progressing. How many discussions about the 2004’s have we read in Tanzer, Burghound, and View from the Cellar? Really, the source for finding out about a potential problem with the vintage that may only affect certain wines is that of wine boards such as this one and others like the Burgundy Report. Whether the 2011’s end up being as problematic as the 2004’s, who knows, but cautionary threads such as these may at least allow those who want to purchase 2011’s at this early stage to do so with their eyes open and aware of a possible issue.
Goes without saying - all vintages are different - and nobody talked about GM in 04 at that stage…
Actually be definitive about 11 (wrt to GM) at all now is ignorant - because at this stage in 04s evolution less than half of the wines seemed to have a problem. We actually won’t know how ‘infected’ 11s are, or are not, for at least another year, probably longer. I wrote my 04 coccinelle piece in October 2008 (and was roundly laughed-off as a crank), we are 2 years away from the same time-slot for the 11 vintage.
I’m drinking many right now while their charm is dominant…
[It’s fair to say I’ve tasted a lot of 07s, never (yet!) one with GM in the strict 04 (burgeoning 11) vernacular]
As far as critics go, once again (by and large), they are again prettry much totally wrong.
The '11 wines I have tasted vis a vis 'their '10 and '09 (and '08 even) counterparts are for me, so far behind '10 (in particular), it’s just proving pointless to compare the major critics points scores.
The same wines in '11 say (vs '10) that are a point apart in critics tastings, I probably have them as being 5-8 points apart, which is more than a pretty significant difference.
The Gibourg sisters, and their longtime assistants, whole heartedly disagree with the entire ladybug pyrazine theory, from any vintage. Blocked phenolic maturity that creates underripe phenolic pyrazines that are chemically unique to Pinot Noir (as opposed to the qualities found in other varietals like Cab Sauv or Cab Franc) is what they attribute it to; its flavor, aroma, and molecular structure is unique to Pinot Noir. Different maladies create this phenomenon, specifically oidium, and the damage caused by the heat stress of 2003, both of which block a plant’s ability to deliver sap, the lifeblood of grape maturity.
Indeed, Bill took pictures of sorting trays full of bugs in 2011 (sorting trays are what they take OUT of the wine to be made, a point that Jeremy Seysses confronted Bill about). This seemed to be one of his first indicators to be very cautious, and something that lead to an anticipation of the bug pyrazine presence. His follow up tasting experiences confirmed his anticipation, that there are green bug pyrazines in the wines.
HOWEVER, if this is the case, as the sisters and their assistants pointed out, why isn’t there bug pyrazine in the 2003s, a vintage in which they all recall MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF LADYBUGS? They said that the ladybugs were everywhere in 2003, fist-fulls of them in the sorting trays, crawling everywhere in the winery, cuves, and barrels. People don’t mention a peep about “green meanie” bug pyrazine from '03. Curious, no??? All of the growers whom I have queried about the physical presence of ladybugs in '11 don’t recall large amounts of ladybugs in 2011. I harvested and sorted at 6 domaines in 2011, and specifically was looking for and sorting bugs. There were far more pincher bugs than lady bugs, and not many lady bugs at that. From the grounded scientific studies about bug pyrazine that I have read (someone posted a link about those a while back…very very informative), the amount needed to be perceptible to humans, even with a variable threshold of sensitivity, is quite high. From what I calculated, really high; while I don’t recall precisely, I think that it was something like 10 bugs per bottle of wine. The ratio of bugs to fruit would have to be so high that when sorting fruit, one would be going bonkers trying to keep up. When I was sorting, there were a few ladybugs per bin of fruit, that is to say several kilos fruit had a few bugs that I was easily able to sort them out. There was not some critical mass of bugs…
I see a strong willingness on the part of many to accept the possibility that bugs are the cause of weird green flavors and aromas in '04 and (to a dramatically lesser extent) '11 Burgundy.
I, however, see little to no willingness on the part of those who are endorsing the bug pyrazine theory to accept that it could very well be the age-old familiar “regular” pyrazines that are responsible for greenness in '04 and '11.
This unwillingness to even acknowledge the potential validity of both sides of the coin from the “pro-bug” camp does seem to be an intentional psychological stance, heels dug in firmly.
My interest is in inclusive theorizing, all potential ideas given their due, backed up with concrete study and tasting.
I also think it fair to say that it is a pity that the growers own opinions are so readily discredited. One can always cite potential self-interest to discredit anything, pro or con. But I very much believe in the integrity of people like the Gibourg sisters and many many others growers whose upstanding character, humility, and deep experience is beyond self-interest. It is genuine.
I gotta run…that’s all for now…
Send us the images of bugs in 2003 Robert - I was ‘there’ but not harvesting, so only have 04 and 11 ‘evidence’ - I don’t remember seeing bugs, but I’ve quickly emailed 10 vignerons, and of the 2 that have replied so far, neither remember bugs in 03. Let’s see what the others say…
"I, however, see little to no willingness on the part of those who are endorsing the bug pyrazine theory to accept that it could very well be the age-old familiar “regular” pyrazines that are responsible for greenness in '04 and '11." - would that be because we find the smells completely different?
As for 10 bugs a bottle of wine - try reading the swiss report and my observations at the end of my original coccinelle article in 2008. Before 2011 I was completely open to the possibility that 2004 might eventually be attributed to something else - that’s what us scientists do - we change horses when there’s a story (theory) that fits better. 2011 has strengthened that initial theory, not lessened it - so far. You have a cash/money horse in this race, I don’t…
Well back to my original point. It seems that a handful of people declare catastrophe and everyone is running for the lifeboats. Many more people who also have a lot of experience tasting are saying not. I personally have not tried any 11s yet so can’t give a personal note.
Also I must say I have to question the ladybug thing. It doesn’t make sense to me that they come out of nowhere every 7 years like a plague and infect every vineyard in Burgundy. In fact the more Panzer speaks the more sense he makes. Now I’m really scared !
Perhaps you have no “cash/money horse” in the race, Bill, but you certainly have a horse in the race at this stage. You hold yourself out as a Burgundy critic, and have staked out and defended a position. Perhaps you have no money at risk, but your reputation as a critic is. Thus, I don’t see that Robert’s opinion on this subject should be viewed as any less legitimate than yours. Also, I really doubt that Robert and his business gain anything by passing flawed wine on to customers.
Disclaimer: I sell Burgundies (but if I used the time that I spent doing so practicing law, I would be far ahead financially).
. Make note of the official “official” definition of what a Greenie Meanie is in post