Really, thinking something is tacky is the kind of aesthetic judgment one would have thought people might object to but would hardly try to disprove. No right Perse has in the matter, moral, legal or other, could conceivably make a difference to Alex’s judgment.
The same goes to that matter for his judgment with regard to Pavie’s modernism and L’Angelus’s lack of subtlety. And surely many people, as you well know, do share his judgment about Pavie. You have only to look at other threads on the topic to see that many on this list share that judgment. That many others do not and that it commands high prices fairly clearly is not counter-evidence.
Jonathan… I am not saying you or anyone needs to like a wine. That is personal taste. Fine on either side of the equation. But when anyone, or any business receives a coveted promotion, saying it is tacky to announce it, promote it, etc., is well… tacky
It took an enormous investment to earn that achievement. You can agree with the results or not. That is also a different argument. But to state it is tacky to say they are now a First Growth is wrong. They are a First Growth. It is a fact.
He said it was tacky to put the display up on their domaine, which is more than merely announcing it. Hell, I might find their domaine architecture tacky for all I know. As I said, you can disagree with the evaluation, but you can’t disprove it. Clement Greenberg thought Salvador Dali to be kitsch (I agree with him for the record). “Many” people thought well of him. But that didn’t make Greenberg wrong.
And many people, by the way, think self-promotion is, almost by definition, tacky. Being tacky maybe good business, but that won’t change the judgment.
For the record, I tasted 00 Pavie once on release. I’d never buy it but I have no opinions on other vintages.
You can see pictures of the domaine, along with the engraved name and level of classification here:
Clement Greenberg thought Salvador Dali to be kitsch (I agree with him for the record). “Many” people thought well of him. But that didn’t make Greenberg wrong.
Well, all I can say to that is, I know who Salvador Dali is. Who the F is Clement Greenberg!
Of course, I am in the camp that finds the best art of Dali stunning… It was good enough for the label of 1958 Mouton Rothschild , even though they were not even a First Growth yet, it’s good enough for me
You can see pictures of the domaine, along with the engraved name and level of classification here:
Clement Greenberg thought Salvador Dali to be kitsch (I agree with him for the record). “Many” people thought well of him. But that didn’t make Greenberg wrong.
Well, all I can say to that is, I know who Salvador Dali is. Who the F is Clement Greenberg!
Of course, I am in the camp that finds the best art of Dali stunning… It was good enough for the label of 1958 Mouton Rothschild , even though they were not even a First Growth yet, it’s good enough for me
In general I quite like Angélus, in some recent vintages at least, although not all vintages.
Pavie I like less, although I liked the 2015 more than Jeff Leve thought I would. I know, because he told me I wouldn’t like it, but then I did.
Absolutist statements about the perceived intrinsic qualities of either wine are difficult (impossible?) to justify though. A wine is not “the sole of elegance” (whatever that means - sorry Jeff) because one taster enjoys it. Nor is it horseshit because another taster does not. You can’t take the taster out of the equation.
Chris… I was surprised you liked the 2015 Pavie. But happy to hear as I did as well. I find Angelus to be an elegant wine. As to telling others what they should or should not like, I suppose I will just quote myself. Without typos hopefully
Clement Greenberg was a far better art critic than Salvador Dali was an artist. I do not draw my canon of modern painters from whom Mouton Rothschild has chosen to put on their labels. They’ve had great artists. They’ve had others.
I forget who said about Dali that he was a genius–up to the elbows. But he was right.
No. If you think that, you have absolutely no idea what elegance is, or you have been drinking far too much Pavie. This is one of the most ludicrous claims I have ever seen on these boards. What gets me, is that you have tasted elegant wines, and then you call Angelus not just elegant, but the “sole of elegance.” I know we have different palates, but I thought you could describe a wine correctly.
Angelus is not a subtle wine; it starts off big, and never relents. The flavors don’t layer, they are full and in your face from start to finish. I like Angelus, and very occasionally pull a bottle out of the cellar. It is a big strapping wine, has good acidity, and decent length. I would never drink a bottle for its subtlety, finesse or even its elegance. Compare it to one of the great or even mid range Pomerols, and it will show chunky and rustic.
Be original, 2 others already tagged me on that one.
No. If you think that, you have absolutely no idea what elegance is, or you have been drinking far too much Pavie. This is one of the most ludicrous claims I have ever seen on these boards. What gets me, is that you have tasted elegant wines, and then you call Angelus not just elegant, but the “sole of elegance.” I know we have different palates, but I thought you could describe a wine correctly.
Mark… I’m not sure how to take that remark… It seems like a compliment, sort of… And yet?
Sorry, but I find Angelus to be an elegant, sensuous, tasting experience. There are better wines. There are worse wines, There are different wines… But Angelus is a sublime textural experience, and yes, I find elegance in it.
Jeff, I am sorry to say it is not a compliment, more disappointment. I cannot say I read your notes, but as a bare minimum, being able to describe a wine accurately, whether you like it or not, should come naturally to someone who has tasted as much wine as you. Calling Angelus “elegant” is not accurate, period.
More importantly, when you describe a wine, you should be able to communicate what a wine tastes like. We disagree completely on the Cos 2009, but I would have guessed that our descriptors would have been similar, even if we had opposite reactions to the wine. If so, I would argue, but respect you.
If your descriptor of Angelus is really the “soul” of elegance, then I will start looking for the 'put my hands up and surrender emoticon" and move on.
I dislike Angelus, and I think it is about as elegant as the Trump Tower. But that is just my opinion and I respect Jeff’s especially because he is so consistent.
I dislike modern Pavie even more but think the underlying terroir is far superior, so it is possible to make really great wines there, which is not possible at Angelus.
I know you live in Southern California, but not everything revolves around money, trust me. It is crass to say that "Hence the high prices the wine brings in the open market, which is the only true classification”. Money is not everything in this life, thank God!
The prices for certain wines, such as we have discussed, were also driven upward by one wine critic. The most influential one, it’s true. But by no means the sole arbiter of good taste in the world!
Furthermore, the law courts will decide whether the way Angélus was promoted was legal or not.
Angélus the sole (sic) of elegance? That’s perverse. Its big, it’s vinous, but elegant? Gimme a break! No way José!
As for Perse, of course it is his right to carve whatever he wants on his château. But it is also arrogant and stupid because he might lose that classification. What absolute hubris!!! There is hell of a big difference between “announcing” his promotion, as you say, and carving into stone.
In fact, it’s unbelievably crass and arrogant.
The opposite of class.
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