I have preferred Burgundy over Bordeaux since near the beginning of drinking fine wines. For example, I have visited Burgundy seven times and Bordeaux once.
But, I have generally found Bordeaux to be a wonderful change of pace for me because I don’t want to drink the same thing over and over and I have always been a Bordeaux fan as well.
Not much less than the four wines you mentioned. Why would you expect a '79 Bordeaux to be better now than, say, 10 or 20 years ago? This was never supposed to be a 40-year vintage.
So kind of like drinking Burgundy of any age. (I agree with you by the way).
Howard… While we do not agree that often, I am not sure what you were expecting. 79 Pichon is 40 years of age! Wines are not immortal. And 79 was an early drinking vintage. I liked 79 Pichon in the past as well, but that was 15-20 years ago, when I feel that wine was at its peak.
In the top vintages, some of the best chateau can age for 30, 40, 50 or more years. But in moderate years, those wines are best after a decade of age IMO.
Jeff,
I did not bring either of the 1979s - my 1979s were drunk long ago (I brought the 1989 Cos, as I said above). But, two of the wines were second growths from 1989 and others of the wines I have had over the past year or two have included 1982s, 1986s, and 1990s. And, as I said, I have not felt this way about all of the wines I have had from that era, but I have from more than I would have expected.
It generally is not like you to cherry-pick two wines out of a dozen or more in my posts when I clearly am raising a broader question. While you and I do often disagree, we are friends and I have not seen you in the past do something that I consider underhanded like that to make your points.
Re: Do I need to be drinking my Bordeaux> s > younger?
Whether young or old, whether you’re drinking one Bordeaux or several Bordeaux, you wouldn’t have an “s”, would you?
As in, “Nous avons bu plusieurs Bordeaux hier soir.”
I think one of those pasts was our dinner 2 years ago at Chaumiere? As you know (and I’ll take issue with you here, Jeff, though my own palate is not Bordeaux-centric), I swooned for both the 79 Comtesse and the 82 Canon, Howard–not finding either anywhere close to tired or past prime. All I can recommend is that you taste-drive some of your younger bottles and see what your palate says. Maybe it’s a case of you having had a lot of these in the last little while, as far as your Bordeaux drinking is concerned, so that your palate is looking for a change of pace–even within that style?
Best,
Mike
I only mentioned that wine because it was in that post. IMO, 89 COS has always been a moderate wine. The 90 has another 10-15 years of pleasure if well stored.
As for 1982, most wines are at peak maturity. Few will improve from here. This is not a bad thing as those wines are approaching 40 years of age. 86 will live forever. But with few exceptions, they are not charming wines that I seldom enjoy. There are a few stunners, but most are too hard for me.
I’m with you on the 82 Canon. It is gorgeous. As for the 79 Pichon, there is no substitute for your own palate. I cannot think of any 79 Bordeaux that is better today than it was 10 years ago. But that’s just me.
Agreed and thanks Jeff. For reference, my notes on the two wines from 2 years ago. Both these wines made my WOTY list that year with the Canon coming close to being the WOTY:
"1979 Chateau Pichon de Longueville Comtesse de Lalande
Nutmeats, more cedar and pencil shavings. This is really very good. Curvy and slimly pretty with still-very-lively red fruit. It has nobility and that sublime sense that, in a way, only Comtesse gets to. Truly, one of my fave Bordeaux houses. #2 for me tonight."
"1982 Chateau Canon
Powerful nose–still very primal and primary with dark currant and pine, cedar and meat tinges. Polished and powerful on the tongue, more quintessential Bordeaux—the plums and currants form the base of a finish that lasts forever. Graphite and pencil shavings complete the package and the tannins are beautiful. 94 if pressed to score, I can’t pour out any of this. One of the greatest Bordeaux I’ve ever had the privilege to taste. WOTN"
I’m the opposite. Every time I open a 20-year-old Bdx I think I should have waited another decade. I’m not a lover of truly ancient wines, but 1970s / 1980s Bdx are in the sweet spot for me.
One of the first Bordeauxs I bought when I got to DC was the 1979 Comtesse, so I am very familiar with the wine (I think it was $13 or $14 a bottle). I remember the wine being much better when we had it a couple of years ago than when we had it this weekend. Neither were my bottles (I brought the 1982 Canon), and the storage of the person who brought the bottle two years ago is better than the storage of the person who brought it Saturday night. However, Mike, my issue has been more recent than the tasting with you, which is why I don’t know whether my problem is with the wines or with me.
My sense is that some classified 1982s are past peak (e.g., Cos d’Estournal), some are at peak (like Gruaud Larose) and some are just getting to peak (like LLC). The Cos was the favorite 1982 at most of the tastings I went to where it was served for the first 20 years of so of its life, but that generally is no longer the case.
I have had some excellent 1986s. Come back to DC and we can drink 86s.
Makes his point clearly and poetically… Nice post.
As a younger and more novice taster, I too experience what Howard describes with many older bottles gravitating to a similar mean - many seem to lose their precision and distinctiveness and just taste like… well… old Bordeaux. I personally enjoy that taste. I opened an 81 Montrose last weekend that was very pleasant, not flawed in any way, and allowed me to demonstrate for our guests an example of an aged Claret, but it wasn’t an ethereal experience for me. Frankly I was just happy it showed well and gave it a 92.
Conversely, sometimes really young Bordeaux (I mean really young) just tastes like… young Bordeaux, and requires time to find its own way. However, I’m enjoying the place that many 89s are in now. Perhaps that’s my sweet spot, and would have expected the Cos to be a little more compelling.
There’s a reasonable consensus here - some chateaux in certain vintages have the life for 40+ years. There is bottle to bottle and storage variation. If Mr. Cooper retains the ability to appreciate nuance in other regions, I doubt it’s his palate.
Howard, it’s entirely possible you’ve had a run of slightly tired bottles; it certainly happens. I opened up a few 85s/86s in a row that were disappointments, but then opened up an 83 La Mission a few months back that was absolutely phenomenal and tasted remarkably fresh despite its age and tertiary flavors. I could certainly be wrong, but I suspect the right bottle might get you back to enjoying Bordeaux as a change of pace.
I feel like Bordeaux is at its best from 20 to 30 years old, when the tannins have relaxed but the fruit is still vivid. I love Bordeaux but to me it just doesn’t have the complexity payoff to make up for the loss of fruit. Even for older wines they are much better when there is a warm layer of fruit still lifting up the flavors.
Your sweet spot in that 20-30 year zone will depend on your tastes, but for my tastes at least (and I do like fruit) I’ve consistently found that they are much better in that age range. So I guess I’m agreeing with the OP.
John, Greg and Marcus all make excellent points and I am sure they are all correct.
Of course everyone is entitled to drink the wines whenever he/she wants. However my feeling is - depending on the vintage - that often 20 years is slightly too young for the better Chateaux. A 2001 Leoville-Poyferre recently could have done it with a few more years, and most 2000s are still very youthful.
On the other hand most vintages in the nineties are drinking very well, with the exception of a few 96 left bank and 98 right bank.
So 20-30 years seem to be a good point with the focus around 25 years - and who likes it older can simply wait a few more years.
79 was so good at a relatively young age. I started drinking Bordeaux in the late 80’s and two of my favorites then were 79 Gruaud Larose and 79 Pichon Lalande. I have really enjoyed both wines in recent years but unless you have a very particular taste for older wines, it’s hard to argue with your points above.
As for the OP, there are so many variables at work, it’s really difficult to generalize. I’ve had excellent luck from my own storage of wines from the 80’s bought on release (86 onwards), but mixed results backfilling - lots of great experiences but also many bottles that seemed less than they should have been.
There was also a marked improvement in wine treatment (mostly shipping, I believe) in the late 80’s. When I started buying there were all sorts of heat-damaged wines on the shelves from 1985 and before.
Finally, personal taste plays a huge part. I love tasting old wines, but there are lots of times when I see my wife and others looking a bit sideways when we open something that is objectively past peak.
BTW if you have any current recommendations for wines like those 10-year old 79 Gruaud and Pichons, I would love to try them.
Great post, Craig.
This comment resonated. It’s a funny reality check that I get often, not just on older wines, but also in unique wines, like a Levet. While I may love them, find them intriguing, or like a Musar more interesting than great, I try to be mindful that most people that I hang out with do not share my palate. That’s why at Bern’s a couple weeks ago, I did not go for 30-40+ year old Bordeaux, even though that would have been my preference. Or, like my business dinner last week, and another this Friday, a 2000 Bordeaux is the choice. I think a vintage like that is more in the sweet spot for most people, where the youth of fruit prevails over the maturity, but there is still enough maturation to be of interest for the likes of us.