1100 views on this topic. Hmmm, whether it tastes better or not, this seems to be a subject people are interested in. I am really glad to see that we’re talking about it.
When Artemis bought Araujo and changed the name to Eisele, they also changed winemaking practices as well as viticultural practice. They bought more barrels from us and fewer from others. Naturally that doubled the quality, sometimes tripling!! Can I say quintupled??
I’ve retired from this cooperage so I am not cashing in on this change, but thought it worth pointing out. All the barrels they bought were organic, none biodynamic–as far as I know.
There might be people dancing naked in the Bertranges forest at night but not too many folks burying horns full of BS.
Well, Mel - let’s not let the truth get in the way of the story . . . ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
Cheers!
Bio-dynamics unfortunately has a lot of voodoo, for lack of a better word, but the approach and goals are great IMO. Even if the benefits were proven only to be environmental and not related to taste I would be all for it, however as a regular gardener I have a hard time believing that focusing on a healthy overall ecology wouldn’t affect quality in a positive way. Of course the marketing gurus have jumped on it too.
As for A/B testing, it would be difficult within the same vineyard since the ecology of the site isn’t isolated in a single row, the soil and insect life are more connected then that.
Not that I have ever noticed. Biodynamic is good for the earth but does it make better wines. I see no evidence and a few biodynamic versions of otherwise non-biodynamic wines have been a bit dirtier and more rustic to me.
I’ve seen several posts commenting on how good the soil is at biodynamic vineyards but I have had wines I like from places where the vineyard just looks like a bunch of rocks and they were great. I always believed that vines that struggle often make the best wines. None of these vineyards I visited would be considered biodynamic but none of them used pesticides or herbicides and fertilized fairly naturally which would make them more or less organic though none of them applied for such. I have always considered biodynamic to be an expensive scam. Vignerons who put in that much time in their vineyards are going to produce good grapes to begin with.
Are you claiming that these aren’t part of the biodynamic approach? Every explanation of the approach includes the mysticism/quasi-religious elements
I’ve heard of a cooperage that is making biodynamic barrels, but have not seen any.
Perhaps folks in the cooperage business should start talking about druids living in the forest…much more fun than grain selection, air drying and toasting.
L Leichtman has a good point.It used to be growers said that it’s because our soil is so poor it is so good.Now they seem to be saying, Because we can use earthworms from our soil as bait, the wines will be great.
Larry, you caught me again. The only person dancing in the Bertranges forest will be Denis Charlois from Saury Cooperage when the Le Pens win another electoral victory. Probably clothed though.
To try and answer the question: I am pretty sure Chave, Clape, Allemand aren’t biodynamic, while Chapoutier is. So there’s a “strike” against biodynamic - or, more likely, one little piece of evidence that biodynamic doesn’t necessarily mean anything on its own.
Another example is D’Angerville. I don’t know when they switched completely to being biodynamic, but if it was before 2006, it didn’t help the 2006 Clos des Ducs, which is a hideous wine and should never have been released. A case where some practical intervention would have been much better than staying religiously biodynamic.
Nicolas Joly wines are another strike against biodynamic, in my mind. Too many weird and flawed wines.
For me, all I really care about is that producers are using vineyard practices they believe a) make the best wine, and b) are long term sustainable. If that means they might spray some mildew protection in a bad year that is “non-organic”, I’m OK with that, because it’s their livelihood - and I’d rather have some wine from the vintage than lose a crop or compromise the wine.
I think I can conclude pretty safely that being biodynamic has little to do with producing wines that taste better.
Healthy soil isn’t the same as nutrient rich soil, per se. That’s where people get confused. The “poor” soil that’s prized for vineyards isn’t dead soil. Just because you don’t want excess nitrogen…
The “vines that struggle often make the best wines” is a conceptualization. Conclusions drawn from an observation. But, it’s not really true. Vines that truly struggle are stressed out and short lived. Vines that are able to get what they need, without excess, make the best wines. Vines in dead soil need to be subsidized with nutrients to stay alive, but they aren’t getting all the micronutrients they need to be healthy, so they also need help, since their natural defenses against pests and diseases are compromised. The must can also be nutrient deficient, sometimes needing more help than simple nutrient adds to complete.
I’ll add: Anyone who gardens knows composting isn’t an effective means of adding nutrients to the soil. What you’re really doing is feeding the soil web (worms, microbes, fungi). It’s more like why we eat fiber - feeding the microbes in our gut, which are then able to properly perform their roles. Composting is mimicking what would be returned to the soil in a natural environment. It’s a circle of life thing. With those “before” and “after” Champagne soil pics it’s important to note that the soil was fine for centuries before quickly becoming dead. Perhaps they should be captioned “crisis” and “back to normal”.
Mel, I just read that a cooperage is assembling staves on fruit or flower days to improve aromatics. So what else can be done to make barrels more biodynamic, other than a higher price tag?
Aw, come on guys, can’t you dig cow horns funneling universe’s powers and forces around the animal’s head directly into it? Then once removed, you can take the new and improved poop from the opposite end of the beast fill and bury them to make a kinda Steiner horn of plenty fertilizer spray to apply on another lunatic cycle.
It takes a truly fertile mind to come up with such stuff, or illness, or perhaps amazing drugs and/or powerful spirits(bottled). Ha!
My plan is to log trees on root days so the wine will get in touch with its terroir.
^^^^^^
This!
^^^^^^
and this!
The 2 posts above by Alan and Wes are spot on!
Pontet Canet and Palmer both lost a substantial percentage of wine in 2018.
Is there an article with any specifics on this. I read a few and they all cite the same thing which is that mildew then drought caused the crop loss. I’m trying to understand how this accounts for such substantial losses and the only conclusion I can come up with is that the downy got into the clusters during bloom. I’ve seen this and it is substantial when it happens. Any other time and the downy shouldn’t create such an economic loss unless it led to complete defoliation but that would be later in the season.
I think burying those manure filled horns makes all the difference in the world! ![[tease.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/c/c5b32b76bebaa359b0452ae247b61189ffe5fa7e.gif "tease"){kind=small}
I got the newsletter from PAUL DETHUNE today. They’re based in Ambonnay, just across from MARGUET and right near Krug’s Clos Ambonnay plot. Anyway, the newsletter reminded me of this thread, especially some of the comments about the use of copper. Here is a paste of the newsletter, hope this can add to the discussion. I do appreciate this house and buy their wines, especially their NV Rose, which is killer for $40 US and farmed in alignment with their philosophy (as well as my own).
DEAR FRIENDS, LOYAL
AND PASSIONATE CUSTOMER
In terms of ecological thinking, the Maison Paul Déthune is among the first to have initiated an environmental approach in its field. Our desire to respect all actors in the sector; whether it is Men, fauna or flora; has always been a central concern.
In 1996, we made the decision to eliminate insecticides completely. Five years later, we stopped the use of weed killers. A global and respectful approach to viticulture that culminated in 2013 when we obtained the High Environmental Value certification. This official recognition, issued by the Grenelle Environment Forum, is the highest level of a voluntary environmental scheme aimed at identifying and promoting the respectful practices of vineyards…
True to our ideals, we have continued our efforts. In 2016, we obtained the Sustainable Viticulture in Champagne certification. Created by the Champagne authorities and the Ministry of Agriculture, this second voluntary initiative is based on a daily commitment. In total, 124 checkpoints on social, ecological and economic commitments are reviewed. The beginning of this year 2019 marks the renewal of the V.D.C (sustainable viticulture in Champagne) certification. A pledge of quality that meets the major challenge of preserving our ecosystem.
AND FOR TOMORROW?
We have often mentioned our lack of understanding about official organic viticultural methods. The use of copper, the massive quantities of which eventually kill the soil and the life that grows there, is today called into question by several scientific studies.
For a long time, Pierre has been looking for an alternative to the use of copper that is in line with our philosophy. This has now been done. We still have to conduct tests in real conditions to fine-tune our methods. If the tests prove conclusive, we will take a major step forward in the treatment of the vines and the development of a grape of exceptional quality. Chemicals will definitely disappear from our field.
We and our teams are entering a new era: It’s now official: our field is going through a biological conversion. Three years will be needed to obtain this new certification. 2022 will be the year of our first “organic” harvest. We are counting on your support for this great commitment.
Excuse the stupid question, but how does wood get to be “organic”? Oak trees are not typically sprayed or anything that I know about.
Show of hands:
How many of y’all are using biodynamic stemware and corkscrews?
Biodynamic soap for your stems?
There is a potentially huge unexploited economic niche here.
I mean, who would insist on biodynamic wine but disdain going biodynamic for stems that touch the wine?
Are there biodynamic bottles?
Wes makes very good points.
Because most people don’t think about soil and gardening at all, or may only think about them when they pertain to wine, there’s frequently a binary distinction made between “industrial farming” and “biodynamic farming” as if those are the two options.
Biodynamic is simply nonsense created by Steiner who knew nothing at all about agriculture or biology or soil science. There’s no reason not to compost and do crop rotation and to grow diverse plants, none of which requires phases of the moon, etc., or subscription to biodynamic principles. People excuse the BS with the vapid statement “there’s a lot that we don’t know”, which is really a way of excusing ignorance and lack of curiosity. There’s no reason that people who don’t practice biodynamics would pay less attention to the soil and to their vineyards and again, there’s no reason to make a binary distinction.
As to flavor, whether a vine has been fed a concoction stirred by a man’s hand during a particular phase of the moon is not relevant. The tilth, or structure, of the soil is what allows for drainage, nutrient uptake, aeration, and all the other things that are important for plants. If the plant is able to obtain what it needs and the grapes are healthy, that’s what matters more than whether someone believes they’re guiding energy or need to chant some mumbo jumbo. Simply throwing fertilizer on soil isn’t going to do much for the soil, but you can do a lot and you can pay really close attention to your soil and vineyard without involving anything about biodynamics.
Anyway, we all know that playing Mozart in the vineyard will calm and strengthen the vines.
Oh, man, you just ruined the 2019 DRC crop with your negative thoughts.