guess that why the 08 didn’t thrill me. I found it very lemony and one dimensional. Will hide some for a few years.
I opened just one 12’ and explored it for getting a base line and a hint as to how long to wait before it reaches a more balanced and evolved state. For me, it’s a good 3-5 years away from there and you know it’s going to be spectacular way beyond that.
Blake, I have not opened my 2012s yet (well, mainly because they have not arrived yet!). So, based on your knowledge of 08, 09 and now 12, can you do a quick characterization/contrast of the three wines please. I’m curious to see how you see the 12 against the other two.
I got a little less ‘12 than 08 and 09, maybe I’ll regret it. I’ve probably bought a little too much grand Marque champagne lately though.
Agreed- and FWIW I have found that to be a characteristic with most 2008s in youth. In my growing population of TNs for the vintage, I have come to refer to it as the “lemon wall”- that point where the champagne in question shuts down mercilessly with heavily lemon-tinted acids showing and little else.
With regards to Cristal specifically, I did find it to some degree in the 2009 as well. Have not had any other younger vintages lately to offer more insight.
Either way- I do absolutely believe this is not a problematic trait, but merely a stage of adolescence that is particularly prominent in 2008 for whatever reason.
This might be a silly question for Brad.
But where does one go to taste the still wines?
At the winery! The only time I’ve been able to taste Vin Clairs were during visits. It’s possible that Brad has samples sent to him as well.
Mark,
What Keith said is correct. You normally have to visit the winery or go to an event (usually in Champagne) focused on the still wines to taste them. That being said, it still isn’t a normal part of most visits and to get a true view of the still wines, you usually need to have your visit coincide with when the producer has not yet bottled the wines from or based on the previous harvest. With larger producers, tasting the still wines is more difficult - you normally have to ask and be known to the chef de cave and winery to gain the chance. It is easier to have the opportunity at smaller producers, but, even with the smaller folks, not all will offer. If you are interested in tasting the still wines and have a visit set up, you should ask in advance and many will be accomodating (especially the smaller producers) depending on time of year and what they have available. Additionally, at the smaller producers, if you show interest and excitement for what the producer is doing, they may offer it during the winery tour.
Overall, the tasting of still wines being offered outside of the winemaking team has become much more common in Champagne over the last ten years.
And the still wine I tasted, Henriot, was wildly acidic. Funny to try but not fun to drink.
Great to know. For whatever reason, I never have asked or even thought to ask to taste the still wines during visits to any producers, large or small. And Henri Goutorbe is the only one that ever offered it and I accepted and loved the Pinot Noir he poured; in fact, and you probably know this Brad, he made some really fine Pinots in the 80s and they are stupendous. He opened a couple with us and also a bottle during a luncheon he gave for some German food and wine writers that we were invited to join.
This is both my experience and what it is I’m trying to convey. You said it more completely and eloquently. I don’t remember experiencing the “lemon wall” with vintages even in the recent past. Considering the 2008 had 16% added malo content, one can only wonder what it would have been like without it.
Sorry for the delay in responding. We’ve been going through some super SLOW and NO internet connections for the past few days with so much bottlenecking going on.
Great question Frank and one that obviously is answered from my humble opinion.
First, all 3 are fabulous and promise to be consistently spectacular in the years to come. The 08 has all of the STRUCTURE AND COMPLEXITY to be one of the best Cristal ever. Ive had 4 bottles and tastes of many more at champagne events and all were way too young, tight and ungiving except there was so much in the underbrush, that you just know the potential is there.
Of the 3, the 09` is drinking so much better now and has since first released. It’s truly amazing and it can only get better. For me, it’s most redeeming character is ELEGANCE. I could and will drink this now and forever as long as I’m around.
The one 12I opened was a darling and I loved the FRUITINESS and SOPHISTICATION it shows albeit in early infancy. I've had numerous bottles of the !2 BdB and Brut Rose and they are fabulous and drinking well now and needing time to evolve so it’s obvious the top dog does too.
If I were to pick an order of class, it would go 08, 09 and 12`.
Since I’m way behind on posting CT notes, I searched my crude filing system and found a few notes on each and am including a few. Of course, they are written from the standpoint of what I got from that bottle at that time:
1/21/20
2012 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL BRUT- I had just picked up 3 of 6 bottles I’ve ordered and was too curious to see what the potential was for this youngster so, here`s the first trial; I guess I should have waited, but at least it is confirmed, it needs a lot of time; no question, this will be a good one as it has bright acidity, loads of fresh citrus with lemon lime most prominent and subtle accents of spice and toasty brioche; the fruit was a bit tart at first, but that dissipated; overall, it had an element of elegance, but just needs time to evolve, balance and flesh out and come together.
7/29/19
2009 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL BRUT- I just don’t seem to be able to keep my hands off this exceptionally young treasure and chose to open another one on this night; as I’ve experienced previously, it is showing so much better now than the way too young 08`; our bottle was absolutely fabulous; the aromatics included inviting spicy stone fruit notes which on the palate translated into honeyed peach and apricot with some pear and citrus of lemon and lime in the background; it was very rich and full bodied and had a magnificent creamy mousse; it begged to be sipped, not gulped and I avoided the temptation; as good as it is now, it promises to be much greater later on if I can just allow the resining bottles to get past adolescence.
3/22/18
2009 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL- 9.5 gpl dosage; after noticing the straw yellow color, my next observation was that it needed to have a greater chill as it seemed closer to room temperature to me; nonetheless, it was a treat to taste this beauty; it was very youthful, extremely rich and full bodied with layers of depth and unfolding flavors which were especially enhanced due to the warmer temperature; it had an underlying streak of minerals, focused acidity and a creamy mousse; included in the taste profile was toasty brioche, mineral laden lemon, crisp apple and ripe stone fruit notes. This is very powerful with substantial structure and just simply needs time. This was tasted at Wally`s champagne event in LA and the knowledgable rep who poured it commented he does not open Cristal until at least age 15, so 2024 for this release.
12/20/19
2008 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL BRUT- for the benefit of my friends who have hit me over the head for opening 3 different bottles and when it first was released, I did not bring this one; and as before, it was clear that it’s got all of the stuffing to excel and its just not yet ready to offer its gifts; having said that, I loved it; its restraint allows for it to come off really elegant with lots of finesse, but you just know this is a wolf in sheep’s clothing; so it’s not time to wolf it down and I have positioned my remaining bottles in the cellar in such a way as to keep my fricking hands off of them. As the ole adage states, wait until next year {or five}.
Cheers,
Blake
In general, the still wines used to make Champagne are not the same as the still wines used to make Coteaux Champenois (red/white/rose wines from Champagne that are sold as still wines). Even when making a blended Rose, more and more producers now make a separate red wine for this purpose vs. what they release as a still wine. The vinegrowing, harvest, and winemaking is ususally different for a wine meant to be still vs. sparkling. You are seeing producers more and more follow this and have different practices for still vs. sparkling. Some don’t and just choose specific tanks/barrels that show unique characteristics for their still wines, but this is more of leaving things to luck than anything else.
The still wines that go into making Champagne generally are not something you want to drink. They are very acidic and not meant to taste ‘good’ until after the second fermentation. You don’t want to swallow them. After you taste a few dozen, many find their teeth hurt for days due to the impact of the acidity. Occasionally, you will find some that are very good as is, but that can lead into issues with their potential as Champagne if they are bottled alone or as a large part of a blend. As a smaller part of a blend as a base or reserve wine, this type of wine can have a purpose and positive impact.
As for Goutorbe, they make a very nice still red that they release as Ay Rouge. Sometimes it is a straight vintage and sometimes it is a blend. For a long time, it was only released to friends and local restaurants although it now sees a wider release. It is one of my favorite still reds from Champagne and ages very well. I’ve been with the Goutorbes when Rene has invited me to what he called a typical ‘vigneron breakfast’ with friends. It was Pate en Croute and Ay Rouge at 7:30am. I think he did it more for a laugh than anything else. I’ve never had a wake up quite like that.
As a vintage in general, 2008 is more about acidity and tartness than any other vintage since 1996 - for Chardonnay especially. The Pinot Noir and Meunier were the stars of the vintage and also showed beautiful fruit, but you needed to handle everything properly in 2008. Some are already starting to fear that the vintage is going uneven and a lot of the wines may tip towards how some 1996s have gone - acidity that lives forever, but fruit that matures and fades. Adding to this is that 2008 was a year when a lot of folks starting experiementing with new oak, no malolactic, and no dosage. That is a possible recipe for disaster. Even when tasting the still wines from 2008, you could get the sense that a lot of Champagne might come out unbalanced. A lot of the producers who went all new oak, no malo, and no dosage in 2008 have now stated that was a mistake and have learned to be a bit more flexible.
I love 2008 as a vintage and think it is a top vintage and along with 2009 and 2012 (and potentially 2019) is the best since 1996/1995. You just need to be careful with some of the wines. Acidity and tartness are good, but don’t necessarily equal ‘great potential’. Everything needs to be balanced or you end up with mouth-puckering, moldy orange and browning apple flavored acid water.
I love this Brad. I kind of remember the still blending wines are not to taste and I think I`ll pass on sampling.
You may recall you turned us on to Hotel Castel Jeanson and the Goutorbes and especially Henri took a liking to me and even tho he did not speak English and my French is bad, we spent a good deal of time together and he opened up some treasures. both still and sparkling. He even came over to wish us adieu when we departed. Such a sweetheart.
What about 04? I’ve found most 04 to be as acidic or more than 08 without as much fruit to back it up.
I don’t think 2004 comes across anywhere near as acidic or tart as 2008. 2004 was the biggest harvest that Champagne has ever seen (or at least has record of). There was a lot of quantity of good grapes, but also some dilution. The Pinots can lack a little fruit, but the Chardonnays are quite classical.
To stereotype it, for me 2004 is about bright tartness where 2008 is more about enamel stripping acidity. Or stated another way, 2004 is a bright sunshiney day where you might get a light tan. 2008 is a super hot day where you are too close to the sun. Some people will put their sun block on and some won’t. Everyone is going to get some impact, but some are going to get a bad, bad sunburn.
This is for 2012 and there are a few others that tasted this if you click through. Lemon curd was a common theme.
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2012 Louis Roederer Champagne Cristal Brut - France, Champagne (6/14/2020)
Blind: guessed Cristal and no idea on the vintage. I wanted to say 08 or 09 but that was too obvious, went older for giggles, 2000.
Note: this bottle was open 24 hours but under cap.
Looking at the glass there are very fine bubbles. A little note of honey… Where have I caught that before? The palate is bright, clean, lemon curd, and citrus. That dollup of clover honey hangs on through the finish combined with more of a green apple note. The fine effervescence is a big marker for me, almost still, yet light and feminine mouthfeel.
We drank this on the warmer side and Blake apologized but I told him this was the real test, no hiding behind chilled taste buds exposing only the acid and suppressing the inner workings. The mask was off and it was beautiful.
For me, Cristal is in a category occupied by few wines, a high price tag and over delivers. But that’s another story.
Posted from CellarTracker
Ripe, creamy lemon seems like the predominant initial flavor I get from Cristal, but I don’t have tons of experience over many vintages.
I don’t mean that comment to suggest the wine isn’t complex or that lemon is the only thing or main thing. But yes, that seems like a significant marker for Cristal.
It also just doesn’t seem to have the rough edges that so many Champagnes have. Everything is so pretty, so integrated, so smooth, so luxurious. Such a harmonious Champagne.
Well stated and well done Brig and Chris.