Domaine Leflaive

[A_Gillette]

I’ve always thought the pucelles was a special wine and I still buy it (just bought the 2011 version). For everything else, I will take 3 bottles of the Pernot over one of the leflaive.
A

[billnanson]

@A.Gillette

I’ve always thought the pucelles was a special wine and I still buy it (just bought the 2011 version). For everything else, I will take 3 bottles of the Pernot over one of the leflaive.

+1 (you’d have to buy the Chevalier too - though Pernot has none)

[Emmanuel_Menger]

The Chevalier is always something special among the Leflaive wines. Never had a bad one. Though, new pricing is just stupid. 350€ - €400 is just crazy

[Robert_Grenley]

@Michael Lux

While a relatively good wine, I’ve not been that impressed with the Leflaive '07 Clavoillon at the price point. It starts quite beautifully but the finish is a tad “warm/burning” for me, showing a lack of both freshness and elegance. I’ve had this consistently with this wine.

Pierre Morey retired from Domaine Leflaive mid 2008. After the premox issues I’ve had with Lelaive, quite a few 07s which did not impress me, prices which are plain ridiculous, an interview from AC Leflaive (dating from 2010) in “La Revue du Vin de France” where she’s making a total fool of herself… it’s been an easy decision to pass on these. More money for other producers…

Never understood why Leflaive seemed to not be affected by premox for so long, then something seemed to change…for me it was with the 2002’s. (Interestingly, I have not had a premoxed 2001 from ANYONE, even Ramonet who for me has been riddled with it…and this was a vintage I passed on thinking it would not age like the 2000’s!). And back when the Leflaive’s seemed immune, I was experiencing premox from Pierre Morey’s OWN wines! Of course, I am on the West coast, so who knows WHAT crap happens by the time the wine reaches me.

[Michael_Lux]

@Robert Grenley

Never understood why Leflaive seemed to not be affected by premox for so long, then something seemed to change…for me it was with the 2002’s.

Interesting. 2002 is the first vintage where Leflaive seems to have been hit with premox. At least, at a noticeable level. Own experience and comments from Leflaive aficionados do all point to this vintage as being a problematic one.

I’ve had Pierre Morey’s oxidised wines as well… will check on my 2002 Meursault Perrieres shortly… scared…

Yes, Ramonet premoxed rate is high. Now, at Ramonet’s ex-cellar prices, I do happily keep playing.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

@Anthony Hall

Dear Robert,

If you are sensitive to the sulphur in the 04 leflaive that you have tried then you will have the same problem for each of their wines from that vintage.

Anthony.

Anthony, not only those. Just had the '96 P-M Clavoillons on Saturday that had a bit too much sulfur still hanging around. It does seem to blow off with a decent amount of air. The wine is subtle and delicious at age 17, and would certainly be better with less aroma interference.

RT

[Robert_Grenley]

When those Lefalive 96’s are on, particularly above the level of the Clavoillons, they are absolutely my favorite white burgs of all time. For a birthday a few years ago had the 96 Leflaive Chevalier, the 96 Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne, and the 96 Niellon Chevalier. All were great, none were pox’d, but the Leflaive was the greatest IMO, the likes of which I may never see again.

[CFu]

@Robert Grenley

When those Lefalive 96’s are on, particularly above the level of the Clavoillons, they are absolutely my favorite white burgs of all time. For a birthday a few years ago had the 96 Leflaive Chevalier, the 96 Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne, and the 96 Niellon Chevalier. All were great, none were pox’d, but the Leflaive was the greatest IMO, the likes of which I may never see again.

yummmm

[Michael_Lux]

@Robert Grenley

When those Lefalive 96’s are on, particularly above the level of the Clavoillons, they are absolutely my favorite white burgs of all time. For a birthday a few years ago had the 96 Leflaive Chevalier, the 96 Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne, and the 96 Niellon Chevalier. All were great, none were pox’d, but the Leflaive was the greatest IMO, the likes of which I may never see again.

I’ve had '96 Leflaive Batard next to both '96 Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne and '92 Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne in two different dinners. Next to the '92 Coche-Dury, the Batard had a very hard time. Next to the '96, much less so. My preference was for the Coche but the wife preferred the Leflaive Batard (then again, the wife would prefer Leflaive Batard over anything else anyway).

I’ve had the '96 Leflaive Chevalier 3 times over the last 6 months and it blew me away each time. Amazing wine.

Leflaive did something right in 1996…

[carl_klapper]

…and in 99, 00, 01, 04, 07 and (though it’s still early days) 10. Granted, they did something particularly special in 96, and both the Batard and especially the Chevy are magnificent wines. Did someone say something to the effect of “the demise of the House of Leflaive”? You gotta be kidding!

[Michael_Lux]

IMHO, Leflaive did nothing extraordinary in the vintages you list (though I have not tried '10), at least not when compared to other producers. They did particularly well in '96 though. Granted, they’re not bad wines but at this price point, my take is that you have to be kidding to keep buying

[Scott_E_Wade]

@Chris Seiber

@Scott E. Wade

I’ve been impressed even with their Borgongne and Villages Puligny. The next one I’m looking at firing open is 2010 Borgogne.

I had meant to ask this. As someone who rarely has the budget for the upper-tier Leflaives, I sometimes pass by something like the 2010 Puligny Montrachet for $90 and wonder how that compares to 1er Cru white Burgs (and maybe even some Grand Crus) from other producers that sell for the same price.

And the same question for their lower priced wines (Macon Verze for $35 or so, Bourgogne for $50 or so). I’m sure they’re near the head of their class, but how does $50 Bourgogne compare to Puligny Montrachet or even some 1er Cru Puligny Montrachet that you might from other producers at that same price?

[Obviously, I’m not asking for a comparison of every Leflaive against every other white Burg, but just for some very general thoughts on this particular “producer v. vineyard” choice.]

Hi Chris. I’m actually with you. I haven’t had a GC from them. I just haven’t had the opportunity or the willingness to pay that much. The lower level wines are so good though that I’ve been happy anyway. - I agree with your pricing. I usually see the Villages Puligny 1er for about $70, but I don’t think I’ve paid over $90 for the Clavoillon. I bought the 2011 for $89.

I think someone else answered your comparison question above. For my part, I have felt their Bourgogne punches above it’s weight.

This thread has me looking into Pernot…

[carl_klapper]

Michael, IMHO, Leflaive has done something absolutely extraordinary in these vintages by both making wines that were at or near the top of all producers for their respective GC appellations, and at the same time virtually free of pre-mox. Do I think that in this age of pre-mox it is reasonable for a lover of White Burgundy to pay an insurance premium for a this kind of stellar track record? Absolutely. Just one long time fan’s opinion.

[Robert_Grenley]

With the threat of premox making the aging of any white Burgundy over about 5-6 years a complete crap shoot, and thereby effectively raising the price significantly of any surviving bottles, I am not paying high prices for premier cru and grand cru wines that can, IMHO, only justify their prices in terms of the potential heights that they reach over 10-15+ years. I could almost stomach the high Leflaive prices when I thought they were one of only a couple producers spared the pox. When it became apparent, at least to me, that they are not spared, I can’t justify spending that money and taking my chances…not worth it, to me at least, to buy Chevalier or Batard or even Pucelles and have to drink them within 5 years! So, now I buy wines like the Leflaive Bourgogne and in some vintages the Clavoillons to get a 'baby" Leflaive fix. And I don’t spend over $100 on anyone else’s wines that are a crap shoot to age. But we each have our own threshold for how much money we feel comfortable potentially wasting on wines that need to be poured down the sink in order to enjoy the surviving bottles when they are properly mature.

[Michael_Lux]

Carl, I do fully understand you. I’d be happy to pay a premium for wines that have a low premox rate. But for me, Leflaive’s premium is too high to pay. I can get 4 Ramonet Batard for 1 Leflaive. You can guess where my money goes.
I’m quite sad about it. I loved Leflaive. I had a 96 Leflaive Bâtard on Sunday evening. Stunning wine. Reminded me how amazing aged white burgs can be. And how much I love great Leflaive. C’est la vie…

[CFu]

@Michael Lux

Carl, I do fully understand you. I’d be happy to pay a premium for wines that have a low premox rate. But for me, Leflaive’s premium is too high to pay. I can get 4 Ramonet Batard for 1 Leflaive. You can guess where my money goes.
I’m quite sad about it. I loved Leflaive. I had a 96 Leflaive Bâtard on Sunday evening. Stunning wine. Reminded me how amazing aged white burgs can be. And how much I love great Leflaive. C’est la vie…

what!? You can get 4 Ramonet Batard for 1 Leflaive!? Man, our 3 tier system totally gouges us. THe price difference here isn’t even 2:1. It’s probably closer to 1.25 bottles of ramonet for 1 bottle of leflaive. (on release)

[Emmanuel_Menger]

Charlie: you’re talking about Ramonet ex-domaine prices which are extremely low and quite an exception in Burgundy. Besides sourcing the wines directly from the domaine is a privilege for the happy few…
If you buy leflaive and ramonet from wine merchants, prices are on par

[CFu]

@Emmanuel Menger

Charlie: you’re talking about Ramonet ex-domaine prices which are extremely low and quite an exception in Burgundy. Besides sourcing the wines directly from the domaine is a privilege for the happy few…
If you buy leflaive and ramonet from wine merchants, prices are on par

That was my guess =(

[Emmanuel_Menger]

My answer was more for Michael sorry
I fully agree with you

[dteng]

Recently had a 2010 St Aubin Charmoix and thought it was outstanding. Should have bought 6 or more instead of 3.