I buy older wines at auction but I am a cheap bastard when it comes to auctions so i generally purchase 2nd labels, wines that are not winning popularity contests or wines that scored moderate points (87-91 pro critic points) but have delicious sounding notes on cellar tracker. I also don’t spend more than $40/bottle. It’s a strategy that has worked very well for me.
Define rare? I still buy wine at auctions – but in general I don’t think anyone will spend the time trying to fake the stuff I buy. Nothing older than 1966.
Oh, I did buy some 25-30 year old Rioja from Rare Wine this week. Nothing more than $50 a pop; not exactly risking a lot there.
I do buy older bottles from auction and retailers but one has to realize that retailers often source their older bottles from auction.
In the Rudy thread, there were reports of low-cost wine being faked–IIRC in China, but maybe elsewhere too. Anybody know about that?
And a lot of wine retailers, brokers, etc. buy large quantities of wine direct from private collectors!
which is also the source for auctions.
Yeah, I don’t see a huge difference between buying “rare” wines at retail or auction other than, as I said above, I am presumably dealing with someone I know.
+1
That was what I was trying to say. It’s all a twisted web of transactions.
I don’t care if it’s fake as long as it tastes good. 
Provenance for me is also a great risk! How do you mean many of the Madeira have provenance?
There aren’t as many Madeira collectors as with other wines, and many of them are well known within the small world. For example, if a bottle came from Dr. Bob Maliner’s cellar, you could be pretty sure it’s real and of excellent quality. Also, the number of remaining bottles for well known wines can be very small and people know where they are and where they came from. The old Borges wines came from the grand son of the founder.
I’ve bought many hundreds of bottles from auction, but I’ve never bought auction wines that were in the range where I could see anyone risking prison to fake them. 1-3 bottle lots of wines in the $10-80 range for the most part. If i were buying DRC and Leroy and Haut Brion regularly at auction, I’d be more concerned about getting had.
Went to a lecture on this where they showed bottles of white wine DRC. With labels that had nothing to do with the real labels
Yes, Rudy K and Eric G among those “private collectors” selling to retailers. FWIW, I’ve bought a fair amount of wine from auctions, and a much smaller amount from retailers that are not current vintages. But very little of these purchases are prime fakery territory, and almost all are within the last five vintages when bought. I’d say I have a few dozen bottles that could possibly be fake, but I don’t think any of them are fake. I did think I had a fake 1993 Musigny, but it proved to be authentic.
Is there some denial going on here?
We know that both high value and low value wines are faked. Why wouldn’t there be fakes at all levels in between? Why assume that no-one would bother faking something for only a few dollars? Criminal enterprise exists from the absolutely petty to highly organised; why wouldn’t that apply to wine?
Phil, do we " know" that mid and low level bottles are being faked or is this an assumption? While counterfeit $100 bills are quite common, I’ve never once heard of concerns with $5 and $10 bills.
I have never bought at auction, and feel most confident about my retail sources. I do have a 1947 Petrus -purchased Sep. 2007- that I have wondered about after the Rudy K. stuff. The only other is a mag of 1985 La Tache. I worry about this one less since Parker et.al. have always dissed the wine. I am really not that curious, but I figure I’ll add to the thread.
I have a 1966 Leoville Barton that I believe is fake. Bought it at an auction cheap ($45). In fact bought two. Had one, very short unbranded cork. The labels are completely different from an authentic 1966 that I own. Both of these bottles had the original capsule removed and someone kind of shoved a plastic capsule that was split up the side over the top of the bottles. Cheesy I know. More of a decoration than anything else.
Rick, I said we know that high and low value wines are faked. Here’s a story about counterfeit Blossom Hill, for instance: Counterfeit Blossom Hill seized - The Drinks Business
I’ve come across faked pound coins before and a quick search reveals that the Royal Mint believes 3% of pound coins in circulation are fake. By the same token I’d be amazed if there aren’t fake low denomination dollar bills around.
When I was a kid came acrossed a counterfeit nickel(made of lead) dated
late 30’s(still worth faking?).