Faiveley Clos de Beze: why do recent vintages cost way more than old vintages?

[Kent_Comley]

John, I understand that auctions are rather more pure markets than retail or restaurant wine lists, but I think there is an element of catch up. It takes the market a while to catch on to teh price escalation of the most recent vintage. Also there can be a discount on teh older stuff to reflect the question mark over the quality of storage (provenance). One can see the massive premiums paid for the known cellars and sellers with established credentials.

For me in a restaurant setting, with an extensive list I am forever selling wines under market price, as I simply do not check current release prices as often as I should. So the diner gets the benefit of bottle age, good storage conditions and a discount compared to current release. Sure I am constantly monitoring DRC prices, but I am not right up to date with Lachaux Echezeaux pricing for example.

This is also the reason why one can travel to France and find restaurants where there are treasure troves of aged stocks at very fair prices, as the reaturants tend to update prices to reflect the cost of storage and the time value of money, but perhaps not always keeping an eye on current vintage pricing.

In teh same way, whilst I am always pleased to sell an older vintage, and the costs of doing so are factored into the price, sometimes I do muse that I have left $ on the table. However I know that a happy customer will generally return, or tell their mates.

[p_raghib]

I am new to Burgundy so this kind of pricing is really odd for me. Can someone explain?

I took a quick look at wine-searcher just now…looks like a $250-350 wine to me with some outliers on either side that have been explained here. The very few recent listings under that are 2011 and 2013 which almost always run less regardless of wine (some very good values to be found in both). My gut feeling is this is priced where I’d expect it…some really good dirt but this is a domaine bottling by a negotiant who makes quite a bit of this, and even has a reserve version ‘Les Ouvrees Rodin’ which is probably more of a collectible thing. If a vintage like 2014 can be found on sale under $200 I might consider buying some, and the $400 simply reflects significant price increases and perceived demand for 2019, the latest hot new thing.

My gut feeling is this is priced where I’d expect it…some really good dirt but this is a domaine bottling by a negotiant who makes quite a bit of this, and even has a reserve version ‘Les Ouvrees Rodin’ which is probably more of a collectible thing.

Stan, I know there is a common thought that Faiveley is a negoc, but that is barely accurate. Depending on the vintage and the various yields of their many appellations they are approximately 97% domaine. I would venture a guess that Dujac’s or Meo’s negoc business is a larger % than Faiveley. I only mention Dujac and Meo since I don’t think many consumers think of them as negociants.

Historically you could almost always backfill great wines at far cheaper than current releases. I’m sure you can still buy 88 yquem far cheaper than most vintages in the past 10yrs.

[Stan_Y]

Stan, I know there is a common thought that Faiveley is a negoc, but that is barely accurate.

Understood, they own a lot of vineyards, but I think the perception and volume affect pricing.

[brodie_thomson]

For me in a restaurant setting, with an extensive list I am forever selling wines under market price, as I simply do not check current release prices as often as I should. So the diner gets the benefit of bottle age, good storage conditions and a discount compared to current release. Sure I am constantly monitoring DRC prices, but I am not right up to date with Lachaux Echezeaux pricing for example.

In the same way, whilst I am always pleased to sell an older vintage, and the costs of doing so are factored into the price, sometimes I do muse that I have left $ on the table. However I know that a happy customer will generally return, or tell their mates.

Hi Kent

Would really love to come and visit The Barn some day.

Brodie

[alan_weinberg]

For me in a restaurant setting, with an extensive list I am forever selling wines under market price, as I simply do not check current release prices as often as I should. So the diner gets the benefit of bottle age, good storage conditions and a discount compared to current release. Sure I am constantly monitoring DRC prices, but I am not right up to date with Lachaux Echezeaux pricing for example.

In the same way, whilst I am always pleased to sell an older vintage, and the costs of doing so are factored into the price, sometimes I do muse that I have left $ on the table. However I know that a happy customer will generally return, or tell their mates.

Hi Kent

Would really love to come and visit The Barn some day.

Brodie

me, too.

[Mark_Golodetz]

The 1985 Beze is far from rustic; although quite large scaled it also showed great precision. A lovely very complex, aromatic Burgundy with an incredibly long finish. I finished my last bottle about a year ago, and it had plateaued beautifully. I think older Faiveley needs serious time to show finesse.

[emile_bond]

I am new to Burgundy so this kind of pricing is really odd for me. Can someone explain?

I took a quick look at wine-searcher just now…looks like a $250-350 wine to me with some outliers on either side that have been explained here. The very few recent listings under that are 2011 and 2013 which almost always run less regardless of wine (some very good values to be found in both). My gut feeling is this is priced where I’d expect it…some really good dirt but this is a domaine bottling by a negotiant who makes quite a bit of this, and even has a reserve version ‘Les Ouvrees Rodin’ which is probably more of a collectible thing. If a vintage like 2014 can be found on sale under $200 I might consider buying some, and the $400 simply reflects significant price increases and perceived demand for 2019, the latest hot new thing.

My gut feeling is this is priced where I’d expect it…some really good dirt but this is a domaine bottling by a negotiant who makes quite a bit of this, and even has a reserve version ‘Les Ouvrees Rodin’ which is probably more of a collectible thing.

Stan, I know there is a common thought that Faiveley is a negoc, but that is barely accurate. Depending on the vintage and the various yields of their many appellations they are approximately 97% domaine. I would venture a guess that Dujac’s or Meo’s negoc business is a larger % than Faiveley. I only mention Dujac and Meo since I don’t think many consumers think of them as negociants.

Historically you could almost always backfill great wines at far cheaper than current releases. I’m sure you can still buy 88 yquem far cheaper than most vintages in the past 10yrs.

It is stated often that 80% of what Faiveley produces is Domaine. And the largest percentage of volume for the 20% that is not legally Domaine is regional and village appellation wine.

“Les Ouvrees Rodin”, which is the best selection from Faiveley’s Clos de Beze holdings, was created during Bernard Hervet’s tenure. Hervet created the same with La Cabotte from Chevalier-Montrachet while at Bouchard Pere & Fils.

Note that while the global, commercial release of “Les Ouvrees Rodin” was 2010 vintage, there was an experimental barrel(Taransaud) produced from 2009 vintage labeled as Chambertin Clos de Beze “Vieilles Vignes” with 448 750ml bottles and 226 1.5Ls produced. The wine was not distributed widely, if much at all, and was not imported to the USA via authorized importer. The “VV” 2009 is “Les Ouvrees Rodin” in all but name. I have been fortunate to drink the “VV” 2009 on multiple occasions(trying to attach a picture, but not sure file is small enough), so the wine does exist if you happen to come across the wine in the future.