Filter old wine?

[Jason_L_Jones]

Maybe my imprecise terminology is clouding my point. It’s been 20 years since my last biochemistry class.

Let me put it another way. If you ran an aged wine through the same filter that was used when it was bottled, wouldn’t it trap a considerable amount of the precipitated sediment?

[Chris_Seiber]

Sorry if I missed it in the thread, but are there any realistically attainable filters to the general population which would filter out the fine Nebbiolo sediment, yet not damage the quality of the wine?

Yes, yes, for those with the type of lifestyle and the habits to plan their upcoming Barolo nights months in advance and/or with wine storage that is suited to nebbiolo bottles being stored standing upright, that’s the best way, but is there anything else as another option?

Another question: what about for old chianti? I’ve opened two bottles of 97 Rancia in the last few years that were basically ruined by fine sediment. I’m not sure if it’s as fine as nebbiolo sediment, but I’m curious what more experienced people think, and whether that level of sediment could be filtered.

[A_S_K_R_O_B_A_C_K]

I regularly pour wines that have been standing up wine and been very still for a a long time until I get to 1/3 of the bottle. The rest goes through non-bleached paper towel. No apologies. Never had issues, and it always produced a much better experience. Fine sediment ruins so many old wine experiences.

[Ryan_A]

Looks like the objective is to leave the colloid alone and filter out the non-wine substances.

If you filter with a tasteless/odorless filter (probably best with a coffee filter that’s either unbleached or oxygen bleached, and rinsed a few times before using for wine) that allows through particles that are 1,000nm or smaller, should be no issue.

http://www.wineskills.co.uk/winemaking/winemaking-knowledge-base/colloids

Coffee filters allow through substances that are 15x to 20x larger (filters have a 20,000nm weave, so a 15,000nm particle will have no problems and we’re really talking about 1,000nm particles for the colloid), so there should be zero issues filtering wine through a coffee filter.

Coffee filter - Wikipedia

I filter most wines this way; I stand up for a while, then take an oxygen bleached coffee filter, rinse it twice, and then filter the bottle.

Peter - when I read the links I am not following the micron size they filter out (as there seems to be multiples) - question would a 400 micron filter be too much or not enough? You reference 1,000 but it didn’t seem like the coffee filters took out 1,000+ micron?

Sorry for the ignorance but appreciate the help. Thank you

[Chris_Foley]

1000 nanometers equals one micron.

[Ryan_A]

Thank you. Would a mesh filter, equivalent to 100 microns be too much filtration therefore filtering out more than just the sediment?

[William_Kelley]

Standing the wine up for longer than 24 hours or so isn’t really going to do anything. Anything that hasn’t settled in a day is going to be light enough to remain suspended in the wine. In fact I doubt there would be any significant change after about four hours.

Very fine, colloidal suspensions can take a long time to filter out. And they can results in less purity of flavor and textural precision.

[Ryan_A]

Thank you william. What is the right answer (size) on wanting to filter but not wanting to lose the colloidal particles?

[Greg_K]

Some think that certain varieties have finer sediment than others. I’ve not seen any science on that, but perhaps it’s true. Even so, I tend to agree with Oliver. If you’re able to discern the difference between four days and one day of standing upright, you’re a rare bird.

Greg – I doubt there are studies, but just look at the wines. There’s a big difference between, say, an old Bordeaux, an old Northern Rhone and Barolo.

The syrah sediment crusts on the side of the bottle (a little like Port), if it’s been stored on its side. Nothing like that happens with the other two wines. So something is different about its makeup.

The sediments of nebbiolo and pinot really are finer. Old bottles that have been transported or shaken up can remain cloudy for a long time, and that sediment messes up the flavor of the wine big time for both. I can’t tell you how many times people have brought older Burgundies to dinners and tastings and they are cloudy and bitter. It drives me nuts!

Honestly, these days, I double decant pretty much everything, even younger wines. Also means it’s easier at dinners so that no one has to worry if they’re getting the dregs of a bottle.

[Chris_Foley]

Thank you. Would a mesh filter, equivalent to 100 microns be too much filtration therefore filtering out more than just the sediment?

I don’t think so. Peter Hirsch’s numbers say a coffee filter is only 20 microns.

The Rabbit funnel/filter I use is not super fine but gets clogged by coarse sediment pretty easily. It lets very fine cloudy sediments through so I try to be gentle with the bottle (avoid sloshing), and only add the filter into the funnel near the end of decanting.

[Al_Osterheld]

The 100 micron filter only removes sediment that would fall out pretty quickly (like the stuff floating in Turkish coffee).

A 10-15 micron filter isn’t fine enough to remove all the cloudy sediment that is problematic in old Barolo, not sure that 5 would be much differrent. It would also clog very quickly if an old Barolo had much of this type of sediment and had not been stood up for a long time (weeks).

Stand it up, decant, then use filter (slowly) on the rest but keep it separate until you can evaluate the taste.

-Al

[John_Morris]

I find that coffee filters clog up almost immediately with any kind of sediment. I often have to pour from one filter to a second and sometimes a third to get enough dregs to drink.

[Al_Osterheld]

Yes, small format filters like coffee filters are not an effective way of removing fine sediment except for reducing it a bit from a fairly small amount of wine. For coarse sediment, they’re okay. But that’s not the sediment that is problematic (it falls out fairly quickly and tends to not affect the taste).

-Al

[J_Rock]

Are you guys telling me that the 200 micron filter I just bought won’t allow me to bypass standing up older bottles of wine? Hopefully, it at least allows me to drink the bottom of the bottle without getting a mouth full of sediment.

[Al_Osterheld]

It will remove bigger bits, particles at the low end of beach sand that will fall out almost immediately.

In truth, many older wines only have sediment that sticks together in large clumps so it may be fine for you. Still would make sense to stand bottle up for a short period and pour it carefully rather than just assume the filter solves everything.

-Al

[Anton_D]

Standing the wine up for longer than 24 hours or so isn’t really going to do anything. Anything that hasn’t settled in a day is going to be light enough to remain suspended in the wine. In fact I doubt there would be any significant change after about four hours.

Stand it up for a bit, then decant all but the final inch or so. Then once you’ve polished off the main event, run the final few dregs through a filter (or cheesecloth) and have it for dessert. That way you avoid changing the wine too much, but can still enjoy the entire bottle without crud getting in your mouth.

This.

For fun, you could keep filtering the wine and turn reds into whites!

[Ryan_A]

Thank you all. The 400 mesh = 37 microns and makes a big difference but haven’t tried it on ultra aged FWIW.

[Uli_K]

Stand it up, decant, then use filter (slowly) on the rest but keep it separate until you can evaluate the taste.

That’s my MO… and definitely keep it separate - I actually like to serve it side by side so people can experience the difference (which is significant to me).

[Ramon_C]

Standing up has been my MO, as well. Not just for 24 hours or a couple days, as that short amount of time doesn’t help with older Piedmont and Bordeaux wines in getting rid of the floating micro particles. Night and day in taste as that bitterness that’s brought with (and I attribute to) the particles dissipate and other complexities are not masked. Plus, the clearer look of the wine and the smoother texture and mouthfeel makes it, simply, more pleasant to drink.

[Joe_Parisi]

Standing the wine up for longer than 24 hours or so isn’t really going to do anything. Anything that hasn’t settled in a day is going to be light enough to remain suspended in the wine. In fact I doubt there would be any significant change after about four hours.

Stand it up for a bit, then decant all but the final inch or so. Then once you’ve polished off the main event, run the final few dregs through a filter (or cheesecloth) and have it for dessert. That way you avoid changing the wine too much, but can still enjoy the entire bottle without crud getting in your mouth.

Particles in wine range from <1um to 100’s of um. Sure the large particles may settle in hours, but fine settlement <5um would take days or weeks, and anything over ~1um would settle eventually. How much of an impact those particles have on the wine can be argued, but no way I would just assume everything is going to settle in 24 hours let alone 4.