Finding "Balance" in New World Style Wines

[Cris_Whetstone]

Reading through this list, I’m fascinated that Aubert is mentioned so many times. Kutch or Mount Eden I’d get, but Aubert? Aubert is as massive and extracted as possible. 15% abv chards. They carry acid, at times, and have a less distinct oak profile than some, but those wines are humongous.

Also surprised to see how people are talking about Aubert in this thread. I had the chance to share two different bottles of Aubert at two different dinners. Both were overtly alcoholic, sickly sweet, and in general some of the least “balanced” white wines I have ever tried. Others at the dinner (civilians, not wine geeks) agreed. I don’t think I’ve ever experienced such a big divergence between reputation on the boards and what was in the bottle. Sorry, I know it’s a bit obnoxious when people blast a wine that others like, but just speaking to my own experience.

I think Aubert does a big CA Chard about as pretty and refined as it can be. So it can seem like it’s a more balanced wine if that is your style. I don’t care for them either. That richness just isn’t something I really want in a white wine. But I also kinda get why people would toss them out as an example of a more balanced big wine.

[larry_schaffer]

I think the Aubert comments can be transferred to many wines mentioned here - except with Aubert, at least the few that i’ve had, were unmistakably chardonnay at their core. That is not the case with some of the others mentioned, where you would be hard pressed to tell what the variety is.

And I understand Jim’s comment - but I also see where Doug is coming from. Yes, as a winemaker, you ideally need to forge your own path - but that is not necessarily an easy thing to do (I know it from personal experience). But Jim and others, here’s the truth - you can take any vineyard and based on when you pick and what you do, you will ‘make it your own’ - whether it be ‘riper’ or ‘leaner’ . . .

Cheers

[ChrisJames]

My comment was half in jest, as I’ve actually had some huge blockbusters that have come across as surprisingly balanced for what they are - i.e. they’ve not collapsed under their own weight into a blowzy, flabby mess. However, most if not all of these wines have not been balanced in the sense that they might be very impressive for a sip or a small glass, but drinking them on their own becomes a chore rather quickly and they are often so excessive that pairing them with anything becomes nigh impossible.

This comment from Otto captures my sense of things. The issue to me is not so much “balance”, which can be a very abstract concept, as whether a wine is interesting and appetizing or boring and one-note. A lot of “big” wines are impeccably balanced in the sense that nothing sticks out and nothing is overtly offensive, but the volume of fruit intensity and weight is such that the wine is only “saying” one thing. The first couple of sips are nice because hey, this wine is “delicious”, but then drinking it quickly becomes boring and then by the second glass oppressive, like a chore to get through as Otto says. When the goal is to have a wine that is really intriguing, shows a lot of different elements, changes in the glass, and that inspires curiosity about the next sip, “big fruit” and lots of alcohol and extraction can work against it. Not always, but a lot of the time.

Well stated. I totally agree. I would define an unbalanced wine as one that is a chore to drink. It is not even an intellectual consideration. It is more that each progressive taste becomes drudgery. Conversely, I know a balanced wine when I savor every sip and am sad to see the end of the bottle. I’ll add that “chore” wines are not just from alcohol and extraction, but also overt use of oak.

[Chris_Seiber]

Some that come to mind for me:

Sea Smoke Southing and Botella, particularly if you give them 6+ years from the vintage date, and ideally more like 10+
Carlisle
Riverain cabernet
Hanzell chardonnay
Ridge Geyserville
Sandler pinot
Virage
Williams Selyem zins
Tercero reds

I think we focus heavily on the ripeness and alcohol in these discussions, particularly because the alcohol has a number (which sometimes is correct and more often is not) listed on the label, but for me, I think it’s more often about how much new oak. A high quality wine made from riper grapes, but which does not use a lot of new oak, is much more likely to have reasonable balance, weight and freshness to it. And I think oak, much more than ripeness, tends to mask the variety and terroir.

[A.Altman]

Cayuse and K Vintners in WA

[Marcu_Stanley]

I think we focus heavily on the ripeness and alcohol in these discussions, particularly because the alcohol has a number (which sometimes is correct and more often is not) listed on the label, but for me, I think it’s more often about how much new oak. A high quality wine made from riper grapes, but which does not use a lot of new oak, is much more likely to have reasonable balance, weight and freshness to it. And I think oak, much more than ripeness, tends to mask the variety and terroir.

Agreed that new oak can definitely have this effect, but I’ve just had too many great wines that seemed a bit oaky when they were young but with age the oak integrated to be a great accent note and complement to other flavors that emerged. Some Bouchard reds come to mind, and also IME (admittedly limited) the (American) oak can stick out on Ridge Monte Bello early on but later is a great accent note. Some white Burgundies can definitely do this too. That’s not true of what I would consider excessive extraction, over-ripeness, and alcohol, they don’t settle in and end up improving the wine, you’re kind of stuck with them.

[John_Morris]

I’m essentially looking to identify new world style wines on the bigger end of the spectrum that somehow manage to avoid coming off as completely over-ripe, oaky, syrupy glop.

I think this is where it gets very subjective. To me, Sea Smoke and Aubert and Sina Qua Non are over-the-top, but others here consider them big but balanced. I wouldn’t group them with Bedrock or Rhys, which to me are much more restrained (and to my liking).

So… I’m not sure what you hope to glean from this. If you said, “Here are six wines I find big but balanced – A, B, C, D, E, F – suggest some others like these,” you might be able to calibrate with folks here with similar palates. Without that reference point, the answers are going to be all over the block.

[John_Morris]

… I think we focus heavily on the ripeness and alcohol in these discussions, particularly because the alcohol has a number (which sometimes is correct and more often is not) listed on the label, but for me, I think it’s more often about how much new oak. A high quality wine made from riper grapes, but which does not use a lot of new oak, is much more likely to have reasonable balance, weight and freshness to it. And I think oak, much more than ripeness, tends to mask the variety and terroir.

I usually agree with you, but I diverge here. I think ripeness is the biggest factor. I don’t like wines that are dominated by oak (unless they’re young and I know it tends to integrate in that wine*), but for my tastes, you can overoak a wine at any alcohol.


* Or if I’m in the mood for a really slutty cabernet, chardonnay or Rioja.

[John_Morris]

… For example I’ve often enjoyed a small tasting sample of Aalto P.S. from Ribera del Duero, since it is a textbook example of a wine that has all the dials set at eleven yet it manages to keep the balance somehow. Yet it definitely is not a wine I’d buy for my cellar. …

I know exactly what I mean!

[Otto_Forsberg]

I know exactly what I mean!

I’ve noticed! After all, you seem like a very self-assertive person.

[J_Rock]

New World wines that (imo) manage to tightrope walk the balance beam…Carlisle, Bedrock, Rivers-Marie, L’Aventure, Rhys, Aubert

Not sure how Aubert (chards over 15% abv) and L’Aventure make that list, but I would agree with Carlisle, Bedrock, Rivers-Marie, and Rhys. They are still rich in fruit without being excessive, while also decidedly not seeking an old-world feel (like Brick House, Ceritas, and other low abv high acid focused producers). Bergstrom and Penner Ash from Oregon are probably two more that are on the larger side of Oregon, but not over the top, while Antica Terra is probably one step closer to really big (for Oregon).

While I can completely understand someone not liking the style of Aubert or thinking the wine is too big for their tastes, being big or high ABV doesn’t preclude a wine from being in balance. A lot of Port is very nicely balanced despite the massive ABV. Massive TBAs and PX Sherry can show wonderful balance despite their massive amount of sugar and viscosity.

I think Aubert Chardonnay might be the perfect example of what Dustin was looking for. They are undeniably new world in style, being big and bold, but most people would likely argue that they still have great balance due to ample acidity, as well as nice minerality/salinity/etc. to compliment the fruit.

[Marcu_Stanley]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but the Aubert I tried definitely lacked offsetting acidity/minerality/salinity for the flabby, alcoholic, super-sweet popcorn butter elements of it. Not even close. For reference, these were two bottles of 2010 Aubert Chardonnay Lauren Vineyard drunk in 2018. On two different occasions shared with many people.

[John_Telford]

This seems like a very circular conversation. A wine is either balanced or not (nothing to do with new world). As I look through the suggestions, many I would suggest are not balanced but instead CALIBRATED (to the consumers palate), BUT that does not make it balanced.

[John_Glas]

Cayuse – I guess I put this in the category. Yes, they can be super funky, but there’s always new world fruit and lots of it. Very low acidity a lot of times, too, yet still somehow balanced to my taste.

Doug agree with Cayuse. Love the wines and will not a wine I can afford to drink monthly still bought some for long term aging and occasionally for special occasions.

[John_Glas]

Alban - huge Rhone rider, but always very well made.

I should have bought more Alban when I could afford it!

[John_Glas]

Cayuse and K Vintners in WA

K in my opinion nails it with Syrah and Grenache. I have never liked one of the Cab/ Merlot wines on the higher end. I do like their Substance Cab for the price.

[John_Glas]

St. Innocent
K Vintners (mentioned)
Cayuse (mentioned)
Andrew Will
Va Piano
Saviah

[larry_schaffer]

This seems like a very circular conversation. A wine is either balanced or not (nothing to do with new world). As I look through the suggestions, many I would suggest are not balanced but instead CALIBRATED (to the consumers palate), BUT that does not make it balanced.

John,

Define ‘balanced’? It is NOT objective by any means whatsoever. I know where you are going with this, but who are you using as the ‘benchmark’ for what is balanced? If you are AFWE, your idea of ‘balance’ will most likely be different from a Saxum or SQN lover. Who’s right? You both are - and it’s not about ‘calibration’ to me - it’s about understanding that the term is subjective in nature.

Cheers.

[Rich_K0rz_nk0]

However, you can have a Spinal Tap wine, where all the dials are set at “11,” and it will still be in balance… because everything is at “11.” The readings don’t have to be all “5” for it to be in balance.

Tangent: Thought that was one of the best wine metaphors for the year

[John_Morris]

I know exactly what I mean!

I’ve noticed! After all, you seem like a very self-assertive person.

Ha! The one time I go out of may way to agree with you, I muff it!