Ha! That’s where this all started. I posted asking about which 1er crus perform at Grand Cru level and several people said that the way to go was to look for lower priced Grand Crus. Oh well…Guess there isn’t a single right answer here.
I’m hopeful that it wasn’t me who suggested that.
I did.
As I said earlier there are some remaining value plays in big gc vineyards like ech, CdV and corton if you know where to look.
There are “affordable” and good Bonnes Mares. Bertheau and Hudelot Baillet off the top of my head. Plenty more I’m sure.
I would avoid Corton, Clos Vougeot, and Echezeaux without prior knowledge or reliable guidance.
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I had a 2011 Hudelot Noellat Vougeot which exceeded expectations, so that gives me confidence in his newer bottlings. The other one that comes to mind is Grivot which has performed well on the few occasions I’ve tried the 2010. Both of those producers still sell reasonably priced Vougeot wines that aren’t quite bargains, but are reasonable
That seems like good experience, now counting as prior knowledge, leading to further purchases. Sounds good to me. My point is I wouldn’t advise blindly buying from those vineyards, without knowing the producers. There is a lot of mediocrity out there.
Now that I think of it, a recent thread reinforced that there are oceans of mediocre Chambertin, too.
My point was that those are the only places you’ll find “value” in gc if you know where to look.
For CV and Echezeaux, CLF and Millot still are great values. Laurent Roumier CV is a good value. Domaine de Croix is a good value for corton, although there are many others.
Bray - here I am with Michael.
Around Corton hill and CdV - due to the large size of the site - are the best hunting grounds for valued G-cru.
Ok, I do agree with Michael and Peter.
Corton, Echezeaux, and Clos Vougeot are good sources of bargain grand crus, with the warning not to buy blindly.
What do people think of the Geantet-Pansiot Charmes Chambertin? It can still be easily found for $150-200. It’s a very distinctive style, high acidity, very robust but also a lot of fruit depth. Maybe a little crude, but it has tremendous fruit and structure and ages forever. Was very impressed by the 2010.
Geantet Pansiot Charmes? Just as good as clos des Lambrays for now half the price… So looks a bargain compared to an overpriced Grand cru…
Brady - thank for agreeing. That being said - red Corton is getting expensive…at least in Quebec, Canada.
After vintage 2010, the only g-crus I bought was Corton - in multiple bottles.
Since vintage 2015 the only g-crus I could afford are from the Corton hill in that I do not buy any g-curs except red Corton from Aloxe-Corton. In 2016 I bought a total of 7 bottles and 2017 was the last vintage in which I bought only 2 bottles by Des Croix.
The main reason is the drastic increase in price. Here is an example ( and please …NOTE… I am not a fun of T-Merme wines and I gave this as an example becuase his wines are still available ). 50% increase from vintage 2015 and 100% increase from 2011.
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 19 ($297 )
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 18 ($264 )
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 17 ($261 )
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 16 ($231)
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 15 ($203 )
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 14 ($181 )
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 11 ($141 )
The purpose of my post is to provide some information for Brady’s excellent view : ****Corton,… ( is ) good sources of bargain grand crus, with the warning not to buy blindly ***
Here are basic : (a) no need to buy Corton by DRC…because …the producer is based in Vosne - in other words look for the small producers whose bases are in Aloxe-Corotn or around Corton hill; (b) look for the style of the producer with whom you prefer. Here is another example ( I prefer Des Croix for half of the price when compared with Drouhin ) :
Drouhin - Corton Bresandes 16 ( $330)
Taupenot-Merme - Corton Rognet 16 ($231 )
Comte Senard - Corton-Bressandes 16 ($179)
Rapet - Corotn 2016 ($127 )
Des Croix 2016 ( 168 )
Jadot - Corton Perrieres 16 ($179)
Bouchard - Le Corton 16 ( $170)
C.Giroud - Corton CdRoi 16 ($160)
Are those Canadian dollar prices? They look higher than in the US.
This one is very enjoyable and cheaper tah almost any village (in most vintages):
Corton-Vergennes Grand Cru Clos des Vergennes Monopole
Yes - Canadian dollar. I live in Quebec province Canada. SAQ is the only one who priced the wines here.
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Noah,
You hit the nail on the head. There isn’t a single right answer. We all may use different ways to find the Burgundy we like, but the through line for most everyone here is the work to find the wines we like. Michael and I probably go about it in different ways but we both wound up at Barthod and Millot as producers to buy. But I don’t think there’s a silver bullet for what you’re looking for.
That said, between all of the posts here, there is a lot of wisdom and good advice all the way through. The reasoning behind the possible value GCs is pretty sound, and so is the advice to hunt 1er Cru and lieux dit/village wines from great producers(that you like).
I don’t think anyone has mentioned it, but it’s worthwhile to look down the pecking order in great vintages. There were tons of brilliant 2002s from the smaller communes, and basic village wines as well. The distance between GC and the lesser sites often gets narrower in great vintages(especially where yields are good), while price often doesn’t.
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I’ve never had the Charmes. Was blinded on the 2009 Geantet-Pansiot Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Poissenot. I swear it could have been RRV Pinot, which I happen to like, but don’t look for in this context. It’s only one bottle and in a riper year, though I’ve enjoyed many 09’s–so just a data point.
I’ve got to ask. Camus Pere et Fils Chambertin. I haven’t tried it but I think from the price I can assume it’s not a great Chambertin. But is it worth it (~$150)? Anyone try it?
I don’t think anyone has mentioned it, but it’s worthwhile to look down the pecking order in great vintages. There were tons of brilliant 2002s from the smaller communes, and basic village wines as well. The distance between GC and the lesser sites often gets narrower in great vintages(especially where yields are good), while price often doesn’t.
I learned from all burgundy wine critics talked above the the point - the pecking order in great vintage. For clarity…please put aside the definition of a grant vintage
If it is your view that 2012 is a great vintage - then you should buy more bottles of the mid-range from your preferred producer and less ( or no need to pay more for his g-cru ) as the quality of the difference between the g-cru and his 1er cru…may not justify extra money for the g-crus.
For me personally 2005 is a grant vintage, I buy lots of village and 1er cru for me to open them and enjoy them with friends. For the g-crus…from the famous producers and if I had allocation for them, I buy as many as I could - but I let someone else drink them ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}