Gonon 2015

[Mark_Senn]

Looking for another SJ to replace Gonon, any suggestions?

Marsanne (the producer not the grape).

I would agree on this one…looks like 2015 available for $30/bbl

[larry_schaffer]

Thanks, Charlie - thought that might be the case.

There sounds like an opportunity for retailers to make some decent money but underselling others, no?

Cheers

[DougS]

Looking for another SJ to replace Gonon, any suggestions?

Monier Perreol.

^this. Their single vineyards can be had for around $40 and their regular saint joe for under $30

When they’re on, I think the single vineyards can be significantly better than Gonon. I’ve found some disturbing variation with regard to brettanomyces, though. I have a few more bottles I still have to try.

[Alan_Rath]

Thanks, Charlie - thought that might be the case.

There sounds like an opportunity for retailers to make some decent money but underselling others, no?

They don’t need to. There’s not that much wine coming into the U.S., demand is obviously high enough to make the pricing viable. Econ 101

[Ian_Dorin]

When they’re on, I think the single vineyards can be significantly better than Gonon. I’ve found some disturbing variation with regard to brettanomyces, though. I have a few more bottles I still have to try.

You beat me to it! Really good wines, but radically inconsistent vintage to vintage and bottle to bottle. I jumped on the bandwagon with these wines really early, and client feedback was all over the place, and when I ran in to some bad bottles, I realized why.

[Ian_Dorin]

Thanks, Charlie - thought that might be the case.

There sounds like an opportunity for retailers to make some decent money but underselling others, no?

They don’t need to. There’s not that much wine coming into the U.S., demand is obviously high enough to make the pricing viable. Econ 101

This wine has always been heavily grey marketed though. Like 10 or 15 to 1 coming in grey vs. Kermit.

[larry_schaffer]

So Ian, can you explain what that means for the rest of us? Other folks are able to bring the wine in outside of Kermit - is that ‘legal’? And what about provenance vs Kermit’s bottles? Lastly, are these the same ‘wines’ but just different ‘importers’ - or different cuvees or barrels?

Thanks!

[DougS]

When they’re on, I think the single vineyards can be significantly better than Gonon. I’ve found some disturbing variation with regard to brettanomyces, though. I have a few more bottles I still have to try.

You beat me to it! Really good wines, but radically inconsistent vintage to vintage and bottle to bottle. I jumped on the bandwagon with these wines really early, and client feedback was all over the place, and when I ran in to some bad bottles, I realized why.

Thanks for mentioning that. It’s too bad, but I’m glad to know. I’m also glad I didn’t buy too much before finding out. I’ll hope for the best with at least some of my remaining bottles.

[Alan_Rath]

Ian, either way there’s not enough wine to meet the demand. Finding the 15 here in the Bay Area was not easy, it’s a limited retail distribution, and sold quickly. I think even in Europe it is disappearing faster, so grey market sources will dry up (my guess, or at least be significantly higher priced).

[Cristian_Dezso]

I meant to post this separately, but… Just a few weeks ago 2 bottles of 2007 Gonon VV sold on K&L for $1,700 before premium. That is more than 2010 Monfortino per bottle!

[John_Morris]

So Ian, can you explain what that means for the rest of us? Other folks are able to bring the wine in outside of Kermit - is that ‘legal’? And what about provenance vs Kermit’s bottles? Lastly, are these the same ‘wines’ but just different ‘importers’ - or different cuvees or barrels?

Absolutely legal. An importer can sign an exclusive contract with the producer that’s enforceable against the producer, but that doesn’t prevent other importers from buying on the secondary market in Europe, or buying from the producer in a way that he/she doesn’t know it’s going to the US, or to the authorized importer’s territory. If you look at the importer stickers on big retailers’ bottles these days, and a high proportion are not the official importer. That’s true of everyone from K&L to Zachy’s.

As for provenance/condition, it depends on the gray marketer. But refrigerated containers are pretty standard these days, and their are shipping companies that specialize in transatlantic wine shipments, so the differences you found a few decades ago aren’t so common and it’s easy for gray marketers to bring in less-than-container quantities.

In days past, Kermit got his pick of the lots at many producers so, apart from shipping conditions, there could be differences in what went into the bottle. But I think there’s a lot less bottling barrel by barrel these days – more blending for consistency. So I’m not sure if Kermit can claim that advantage these days.

[John_Morris]

It seems to me that a challenge here is that this is an AOC that usually does not ‘get the respect’ compared to others around it, and that these wines are aberrations compared to others in the area . . . but hasn’t this producer ‘proved’ that they are worth it based on a track record? Just curious . . .

The appellation was always a catch-all. It looks a bit like one of those gerrymandered congressional districts. There were always a handful of really good producers, and there are some fine sites. As Northern Rhone prices have increased, I’m sure that’s made it economically viable to make more wine on the best, steep sites that were too labor-intensive when the wines were selling for the equivalent of $10 or $20 in today’s dollars.

[William_Kelley]

2015 Gonon Saint-Joseph – Crush Wine & Spirits
Now $129.95 per bottle, presumably the 750 ml.

That´s a Saint-Joseph !
No Hermitage, Cornas, Cote-Rotie …

… but as long as people are willing to pay such prices - what should I say …

I bought the 2015 for 35 € … that´s quite exactly what it´s worth … (imho)

But you are not habituated to the US retail market, Gerhard. In the context of what you can get for 130 USD from the Northern Rhône off the shelf in the USA, the 2015 Gonon is still not a terrible proposition, even if it’s a stupidly inflated price.

[John_Morris]

I think I’ve asked this before, but is this price what is being offered ex-Chateau is it the US Importer ‘taking charge’ and increasing the price heavily for the US market alone?

Here’s your answer, from above:

I bought the 2015 for 35 € … that´s quite exactly what it´s worth … (imho)

[larry_schaffer]

Thank you for pointing that out to me, John. I guess I sometimes don’t look closely enough for the information but I’m asking about it

And I understand what others are saying about a short supply here in the US. That definitely puts pressure on charging as much as you can until you can’t.

Still trying to understand grey market potentials here. Cheers!

[larry_schaffer]

Oops. Just saw that my other questions were answered as well. Thanks to all for their great information. Cheers!

[Alan_Rath]

I bought the 2015 for 35 € … that´s quite exactly what it´s worth … (imho)

But you are not habituated to the US retail market, Gerhard. In the context of what you can get for 130 USD from the Northern Rhône off the shelf in the USA, the 2015 Gonon is still not a terrible proposition, even if it’s a stupidly inflated price.

Thanks for that William. It’s OK, Gerhard should be proud of paying a few Euros less for his wines, but $10k more for his cars

[Arnt_Egil_Nordlien]

It seems to me that a challenge here is that this is an AOC that usually does not ‘get the respect’ compared to others around it, and that these wines are aberrations compared to others in the area . . . but hasn’t this producer ‘proved’ that they are worth it based on a track record? Just curious . . .

The appellation was always a catch-all.

If always is back to 1969, then yes. Before that it was a small appellation around Mauves, Tournon, St.-Epine.

[William_Kelley]

I think I’ve asked this before, but is this price what is being offered ex-Chateau is it the US Importer ‘taking charge’ and increasing the price heavily for the US market alone?

Here’s your answer, from above:

I bought the 2015 for 35 € … that´s quite exactly what it´s worth … (imho)

27 GBP in the UK too.

[larry_schaffer]

Wow! It sounds like the US distributor is really making a killing on this, no? Any other recent releases from other producers that you’ve seen this kind of discrepancy?

Cheers.