Have we the same palates?

WINE TALK
21

Dear Francois , everybody has different palates . But you always vote for the wines that you bring , no matter what . I remember you coming to Antwerp and you were the only person out of 10 who voted for one particular wine as wine of the night . Guess what , it was your wine .
There is nothing wrong with that , you are a romantic with a strong bias for old , rare wines , sometimes historical ones ( i.e. 19th century wines ) . I admire you for that !

22

I think that is a very healthy approach toward wine. We are here to enjoy rather than analyze.


But you keep going back to the idea that the rankings show a variability of palates. I look at those scores and see a clustering of palates.

• 91/186 or 49% of the time you ranked the same exact wine first. To me that is pretty astounding given the quality of wines at these tastings.
• 60% of the time you had the same wines in the top two
• 68% of the time you had the same top three.

Do you see how I might see the opposite of variability?

23

Herwig,
I have wondered why generally I prefer the wines I bring when we are with friends?
And it is true that it is a natural tendancy, but I think that there is another reason : a wine that I prefer is a wine that I have bought, which means that I have desired it. And within the wines that I have desired, if I open it for friends, it is because I wanted that they are happy. So it belongs to the wines that I like particularly.

24

Chris,
I agree on your comments because the comparison is made between one voter (me) and the average of all votes.

I have read my reports on 40 recent dinners.

For 10 dinners, 6 wines were voted as first
For 14 dinners, 5 wines were voted as first
For 8 dinners, 4 wines were voted as first
For 5 dinners, 3 wines were voted as first
For 3 dinners, 2 wines were voted as first
GLOBALLY :
For 40 dinners, 183 wines were voted as first, which makes an average of 4.6 wines out of 10 to 11 which are voted as first. For me it is a strong sign of diversity.
And when only 3 or 2 wines were voted as first, the number of participants was mainly less than 8.

When reading my notes, I have seen that in a dinner of 10 wines, only maximum 2 wines have no votes, which means that 8 wines have a minimum of one vote. This phenomenon cannot be showed when considering only the consensus vote. And for me it is also a sign of diversity.

In the dinners, all wines come from my cellar. To have in a dinner 5 or 6 wines which are voted first by at least one person (60% of the dinners), that makes me happy.

25

Francois, I like the way you think. Your approach is my preferred way to approach wine: enjoyment over analysis. I would have had a different answer 30 years ago when I was learning what I liked. While I enjoy comparative tastings from time to time, I’d rather have the type of dinner you describe.

26

I also have a tendency to prefer the wines I bring to tastings. My friends tease me for this, and do so I think with just cause. It’s true that we all buy wines we like and, therefore, tend to, well, like them. But it’s also true that others vote more catholically.

27

Francois,

if I understand things right you bought and buy rare wines. I guess you weren’t able to taste these wines before buying. At least not often. Than its logic that you have no clue how good the wine may be before the cork is pulled. If this is the case the wine you bring can’t be always the best. So many coincidences are very unlikely. True?

BTW: The older a wine is the bigger is the risk of a failure. We all know that. Therefore old wines can’t be the best all the time. That’s pure logic.

28

Jürgen,
Many statements that you make are not correct :
I drink old wines since 1975. It makes 43 years.
I have drunk for many wines more than 70 different vintages. It gives me an idea about what the wine that I will buy will be.
I do not buy only rare wines. I have many wines which are not the desire of other amateurs.

When you say : “The older a wine is the bigger is the risk of a failure”, i do not agree with the automaticity of this statement. First, there is no TCA in wines above 50 years of age or let us say before 1960.
Second point, when I choose a wine in my cellar I choose the one of the same wine which has the best presentation, so the chance to have a good wine is greater.

Have you seen what I wrote above ; "The wines of the 186 dinners have an average age of 51 years. The 1061 wines that are neither in my vote nor in the consensus vote have an average age of 44.3 years whereas the 91 wines which are first for the consensus and for me are 73.3 years old. In my dinners, the oldest wines are the most prized.

For all my 226 dinners, which represent 2508 wines, the wines which could have been declared undrinkable do not exceed 40. But of course, this ratio is due to the fact that I choose the wines with the feeling that they will perform, which is the case.

29

I have noticed that you almost never report on corked wine François so your statement that “First, there is no TCA in wines above 50 years of age or let us say before 1960” is cerrtainly an arresting one. What is the basis for this claim? Did cork making change in 1960?

30

Maybe no use of chlorine before 1960?

31

Francois,

you know the saying when bottles are older than 20 years: No good wines, only good bottles. Storage plays a role. The quality of the cork as well. Cork is a product of nature and therefore no cork is as the other. One is more elastic than the other. Therefore the fill level of old wines is different. This makes a difference. I am not an old wine expert as you but I drank enough old wines to know that its almost impossible to have identical bottles. So the risk to have a less than ideal bottle grows with the age. This is common knowledge amongst experienced wine lovers.

Even when wines are pretty young differences do exist as long as the wines come from different sources. I remember a GJE Tasting when 5 bottles of 2001 Leoville Poyferre with different provenance were tasted blind. They had obvious similarities but differences as well. If I recall correctly I rated the wines within a span of 90 - 92 Points. A 1961 Bordeaux from the cellar of the Chateau that was never moved will taste different than a bottle that traveled through the channels of the trade into the house of the first client until its auctioned and landed in the hand of a wealthy collector. If you buy a bottle at auction you are absolutely unable to know what quality the wine really has until you pull the cork. Sure – you can look at the fill level and the color of the wine which give you a rough idea. But that’s all. You can’t look at an really old bottle being sure the wine is superb. You have to taste it.

32

you obviously have a) not read what François has written or b) not understood its message

33

Jürgen,
It is obvious that in a case of 12 bottles of a wine of, let us say, 1921, which have lived the same life for nearly 100 years, the bottles will not have the same level of quality. This is mainly due to corks which had not the same level of quality.
I have seen that so many times.

So what ?

If you think that the fact that the bottles have not lived the same life, you prefer to avoid old wines, it is your choice, and it is your own mistake (for my point of view).

I have drunk probably 7 times 1947 Cheval Blanc of several provenances. 4 times it was the legend. 2 times it was a wine not corresponding to the status, and 1 time it was not good.
You look at the three which were not perfect. I look at the four which were splendid, that I would never have drunk if I had been too shy.

Every time we discuss you say that it is possible that bottles are not perfect. I say yes, and I choose in my cellar bottles in which I trust, with a high rate of success.

I take my risks and I have the chance that it works.

34

Francois,

are we in agreement that its not possible to look at a bottle and predict the quality inside?

35

We are not.

When you put a bottle in front of a lamp and look at the color of the wine, this, combined with other factors gives many indications.

Of course it is not 100% sure, but it works very well. And I have generally positive surprises more than negatives surprises.

If you have no feeling in front of a bottle that you have in hand, it is understandable that you stay apart from the world of ancient wines.

36

I think we talk about different things.

With the help of a bright light you can check the color of a wine through the glass to see if its may be oxidized (color of coca cola). That’s an obvious flaw but not what I mean. I give you an example.

There was an article in vinous with a link on this site when Neal Martin tasted top Bordeaux back to 1945. 1961 Latour was included. Martin said the bottle in this tasting was good but not up to the standard of a bottle he had just before in Hong Kong. That’s the issue. The older the wines get the more obvious is bottle variation. That is common knowledge amongst experienced wine lovers. You just can’t say I have 6 bottles of 1961 Latour in my stock and they are all outstanding. This would be very unlikely even it they look all the same.

BTW: You stated that no corked bottles existed before 1960. In the same article Martin reported from 2 bottles of corked 1953 Lafite in a row.

37

Jürgen,
If you read what I have written above :
“I have drunk probably 7 times 1947 Cheval Blanc of several provenances. 4 times it was the legend. 2 times it was a wine not corresponding to the status, and 1 time it was not good”.

It is exactly the same as what Neal Martin said.

And considering corked bottles, it is impossible to say that 100% will not be corked, but the ratio of corked is incredibly low.

You do not like old wines. I accept that.

38

Francois,

I like any good wine. If young or old does´t matter. But I experienced over the years that old wines are romanticized sometimes and not only judged by their quality. I experienced also that old wines are often seen with some degree of indulgence. You asked if we have the same palates. No – we don’t. As many others said humans and palates are different. But I think when we talk about ancient wines an extra dimension plays a role as well. And I assume it has to do with romance.

39

ugh, talking about barking up the wrong tree…

one talks about experience, the other one (always the gentleman) documents his extensive and unique experience… clash of cultures, clash of haves vs. have nots [tease.gif]

40



There is no question in my mind that older wines have a much lower incidence of being corked.

While I’m sure it is possible Neal encountered two bottles of '53 Lafite that were corked, there is also the possibility that they were re-corked or not authentic.