Help me understand Thierry Allemand Cornas Reynard

[Markus_S]

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this “years ago” like two years ago?

Time is a great distorter. For some of us more distorted than others.

Ha Ha. 2005

ah, there 'ya go!

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

[Jay_Miller]

Oh, and if you’re opening a young wine I’d give a good decant. Probably at least an hour.

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Hi Jeff,

To me, Allemand are the most enjoyable of all the Northern Rhones. You actually pay less for more (I don’t know if that makes sense). They are ethereal, perfumed and have a track record of aging. You get some misses but the highs are higher than Joe Cocker.

They were once way under-valued. I still reckon they are under-valued and Thierry is not far off retirement.

Cheers
Jeremy

Jeremy spot on

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Years ago - vintages of 2015? Is this “years ago” like two years ago?

Time is a great distorter. For some of us more distorted than others.

Ha Ha. 1995

FIFY
Allemand needs at least 20 years

[Jason_L]

Lots of interesting perspective here! I personally love Allemand wines (and Syrah from everywhere, with about equal affection) but the current price tag has doubled and doubled again in the past half-decade. That correlates to fashion and scarcity and for me, arguments about it being worth it have to include the satisfaction that comes from having “landed it.” That said, there are definitely some people for whom Allemand scratches the itch where nothing else will!

[CFu]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

well said - and not only applicable to allemand. I feel like when we drink wine blind (at least a tasting of blind wines) we tend to move too fast cause we want to just find out what the wines are. Don’t give it proper time and thought.

We had a dinner pre covid where it was 8 blind wines - winner doesn’t pay for dinner. And everyone wanted to vote within 20 minutes. What’s even the point?

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

well said - and not only applicable to allemand. I feel like when we drink wine blind (at least a tasting of blind wines) we tend to move too fast cause we want to just find out what the wines are. Don’t give it proper time and thought.

We had a dinner pre covid where it was 8 blind wines - winner doesn’t pay for dinner. And everyone wanted to vote within 20 minutes. What’s even the point?

To figure out who’s ordering the steak, lobster, and caviar.

[m_ristev]

Lots of interesting perspective here! I personally love Allemand wines (and Syrah from everywhere, with about equal affection) but the current price tag has doubled and doubled again in the past half-decade. That correlates to fashion and scarcity and for me, arguments about it being worth it have to include the satisfaction that comes from having “landed it.” That said, there are definitely some people for whom Allemand scratches the itch where nothing else will!

this is the truth right here. the op could be in for a massive disappointment if they are coming into it thinking it will somehow be ~7x better than the new world syrah they are already content with. not to mention there is always a chance for a bit of brett or volatility.

[Greg_K]

Lots of interesting perspective here! I personally love Allemand wines (and Syrah from everywhere, with about equal affection) but the current price tag has doubled and doubled again in the past half-decade. That correlates to fashion and scarcity and for me, arguments about it being worth it have to include the satisfaction that comes from having “landed it.” That said, there are definitely some people for whom Allemand scratches the itch where nothing else will!

this is the truth right here. the op could be in for a massive disappointment if they are coming into it thinking it will somehow be ~7x better than the new world syrah they are already content with. not to mention there is always a chance for a bit of brett or volatility.

I don’t know a single person that loves Allemand that thinks it’s seven times better than another good Cornas.

[adam_caldwell]

Interesting thread. Anyone have additional thoughts on a couple other favorite producers in the region that are on the upswing but not priced at such a high level (under $150 perhaps) ? thx.

[Greg_K]

It’s not Allemand (nothing is, really), but in Cornas, probably Balthazar’s Chaillot. Though that’s seen a fairly precipitous price increase recently as well. Everyone’s been looking for the next Allemand recently though.

[Mark_Y]

Now I want to see for myself. It would be interesting to include it in a blind Northern Rhône styled Syrah tasting.

Sometime’s it’s interesting to compare styles and value with blind tastings, but I think you would be leaving experience on the table using Allemand in a blind tasting. Whether it’s worth it compared to other Syrahs is just a subjective experience(YMMV). But every person who posted in this thread about how special Allemand wines are probably came to that conclusion just by drinking a great wine.

The Allemand wines are more ethereal and nuanced than a lot of modern Syrah. And in a line up with higher alcohol wines, I would wonder what was being lost.

Drinking a bottle of Reynard by itself with time for appreciation and thought seems like a much better way to give the wine and yourself the best opportunity to understand and validate the experience. Especially at $375/bottle.

Blind tastings are a little bit like a dunk contest. While truly great players can usually dunk, it’s not what makes them champions.

Totally agree. And loved the dunking analogy.

For me blind tasting is really educational. But if we are drinking iconic / top tier wines, I rather just relax with it over a longish period of time and enjoy the experience.

[J.Vizuete]

Totally agree. And loved the dunking analogy.

For me blind tasting is really educational. But if we are drinking iconic / top tier wines, I rather just relax with it over a longish period of time and enjoy the experience.

+1

Thread drift, I think what some mean by blind tasting is a more formal setting or competition where there are winners and losers among many wines. I love tasting blind, but to me that just means not knowing what’s in the glass for a moment while I get to ponder it. When I taste with friends, we like to discuss them before a reveal. It is consistent humbling and educational.

But if I’m tasting a classic wine, usually there is some build up and excitement around the label. We had a 2012 Allemand Reynard open a while ago at a restaurant event and the Somm who had generously opened it took a few of his top servers aside, told them about the wine and why it was special/important to remember and poured them each a glass. That would have been lost in a blind setting I suspect.

Alternatively, if the OP blinds a bunch of syrah and doesn’t prefer the Allemand, that too is an education in frugality;)

[Greg_K]

I guess I’ll somewhat disagree on blinds. I think it depends on how you do it and what the goal is. We open a fair amount of wines blind, and some have been Allemand (and other reasonably nice wines), and the goal is generally to see if you can “get” the wine rather than to rank it or to win dinner. Then the wine stays on the table and people revisit it over the course of the dinner. If we’re being more rigorous, we’ll wait for all the wines to be poured for the reveal; if less, right after the bottle is poured. It’s fun; sometimes you nail a wine, other times you end up hilariously wrong. I don’t think it takes away from the experience, either. A few months before the pandemic a number of us (many posters on this board) did a 2004 northern Rhone retrospective that was done single blind, including both Allemands. They were, unsurprisingly, pretty great.

[Jason_L]

Interesting thread. Anyone have additional thoughts on a couple other favorite producers in the region that are on the upswing but not priced at such a high level (under $150 perhaps) ? thx.

It’s a little tricky, because the region has so many fantastic wines but few resemble Allemand. A’s style is sort of uncommon for the Northern Rhone in general as it’s about finesse and tannic structure is not central to it. Calling it Burgundian would be maybe cliche but that might give you an idea. To be honest, I find that style of winemaking to be more common in California (particularly at producers who also make Pinot) than in France. I’m not super versed in South African Syrahs, but I’d think there would be some examples there as well.

For great producers in the region that are relative values, I’d say you may want to experiment a bit.

For great introductory wines, I’d recommend the Syrah from Domaine Faury as well as L’Appel des Serines from Francois Villard. These are $20-$30 wines and they are unmistakably Northern Rhone.

Once you start to spend more than that, you encounter wines that need more time to show their brilliance, so be prepared to evaluate them with that in mind. Take a look at this brief primer from Jancis for a list of good names to shop for. It doesn’t include all the must-try wines but is a good start: Northern Rhône | JancisRobinson.com

[Kelly_Walker]

Tardieu-Laurent makes a Cornas VV that may be a worthy alternative to Allemand. A bit more rustic but much easier on the wallet.

[Greg_K]

Interesting thread. Anyone have additional thoughts on a couple other favorite producers in the region that are on the upswing but not priced at such a high level (under $150 perhaps) ? thx.

It’s a little tricky, because the region has so many fantastic wines but few resemble Allemand. A’s style is sort of uncommon for the Northern Rhone in general as it’s about finesse and tannic structure is not central to it. Calling it Burgundian would be maybe cliche but that might give you an idea. To be honest, I find that style of winemaking to be more common in California (particularly at producers who also make Pinot) than in France. I’m not super versed in South African Syrahs, but I’d think there would be some examples there as well.

For great producers in the region that are relative values, I’d say you may want to experiment a bit.

For great introductory wines, I’d recommend the Syrah from Domaine Faury as well as L’Appel des Serines from Francois Villard. These are $20-$30 wines and they are unmistakably Northern Rhone.

Once you start to spend more than that, you encounter wines that need more time to show their brilliance, so be prepared to evaluate them with that in mind. Take a look at this brief primer from Jancis for a list of good names to shop for. It doesn’t include all the must-try wines but is a good start: Northern Rhône | JancisRobinson.com

I wouldn’t for a second pretend to know more about wine than Jancis, but I’d say that summary is considerably out of date; there are a few threads on WB that have a lot of good info (look for ones where Alfert posts ). It’s a very old school list that spends most of its time talking about Guigal, which…if that’s your thing, I guess, but I expect that’s not quite what the OP was looking for. It also generally lumps in a lot of producers together which often make extremely different wine.

[Jason_L]

I wouldn’t for a second pretend to know more about wine than Jancis, but I’d say that summary is considerably out of date; there are a few threads on WB that have a lot of good info (look for ones where Alfert posts ). It’s a very old school list that spends most of its time talking about Guigal, which…if that’s your thing, I guess, but I expect that’s not quite what the OP was looking for. It also generally lumps in a lot of producers together which often make extremely different wine.

Oh, well I suppose one could take it that way! I just briefly scanned the article and found a large list of producers that I’d recommend:

Gilles Barge, Bernard Burgaud, Clusel-Roch, Levet, Jamet, Ogier, Rostaing, Jean-Michel Stéphan and Vidal-Fleury
Yves Cuilleron, Pierre Gaillard, Georges Vernay and François Villard
Belle, Domaine du Colombier, Graillot, Pochon or Domaine Marc Sorrel
Jean Marsanne and André Perret.
Auguste Clape,Jean-Luc Colombo, Durand, Robert Michel, Domaine du Tunnel’s Stéphane Michel and Vincent Paris

So I thought it would be helpful for a shopping list. Of course, if there’s on-board resources, he should check those too. I haven’t seen them yet as I’m new, too.

Cheers,
Jason

[Greg_K]

I wouldn’t for a second pretend to know more about wine than Jancis, but I’d say that summary is considerably out of date; there are a few threads on WB that have a lot of good info (look for ones where Alfert posts ). It’s a very old school list that spends most of its time talking about Guigal, which…if that’s your thing, I guess, but I expect that’s not quite what the OP was looking for. It also generally lumps in a lot of producers together which often make extremely different wine.

Oh, well I suppose one could take it that way! I just briefly scanned the article and found a large list of producers that I’d recommend:

Gilles Barge, Bernard Burgaud, Clusel-Roch, Levet, Jamet, Ogier, Rostaing, Jean-Michel Stéphan and Vidal-Fleury
Yves Cuilleron, Pierre Gaillard, Georges Vernay and François Villard
Belle, Domaine du Colombier, Graillot, Pochon or Domaine Marc Sorrel
Jean Marsanne and André Perret.
Auguste Clape,Jean-Luc Colombo, Durand, Robert Michel, Domaine du Tunnel’s Stéphane Michel and Vincent Paris

So I thought it would be helpful for a shopping list. Of course, if there’s on-board resources, he should check those too. I haven’t seen them yet as I’m new, too.

Cheers,
Jason

Sorry if you took that as in any way a slight - wasn’t meant that way! But to me, this reads a bit like a list that might have been published 10 or 12 years ago when Cornas was a relative backwater among fine wine journalists. It doesn’t mention any of Allemand, Verset, Juge (both now retired, but Robert Michel is too!), Balthazar, Gilles, Voge, Lionnet, etc.