How do you reach the wine world everyone discusses?

WINE TALK
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Wow! Thank you all for the warm reception and informative answers so far!

I love Spain, have Spanish colleagues and, as is typical with musicians, quite a few of them are wine lovers. I keep a list with their suggestions, though I take it with a grain of salt, since we have rather different palates. On my last trip to Spain - San Sebastián to be more precise - I got a bottle of Rioja and later found to my dismay it was a fruity new oak bomb (then later found out I should have expected this). Ribera del Duero is likely to taste familiar: Tempranillo is equally widespread in Portugal, under the names Tinta Roriz (Douro, Dão) and Aragonês (Alentejo). I’m all for potent reds provided they’ve got balanced acidity… so I guess what I need to do is take their suggestions and read what critics have said about them. Sadly, I wasn’t able to travel to Madrid this April as I had planned, given the current events. I would have certainly tried to explore the local wine scene.

I really like this warehouse, since it caters to my taste, and as far as that goes I’m very happy to keep exploring their stock. However it’s made me think of whether there might actually be a contradiction between my desire to get a better overview on things and my desire to drink what I like. This warehouse has dozens of producers from Burgundy and the Loire, yet only three each from Bordeaux and Roussillon. From a business that sells from small producers with a philosophy for less technological/interventive wines, and with a taste profile which is the polar opposite of the so called ‘international style’, this is probably not surprising.

Is it true, then - and this is debated in the first topic that Howard posted here - that generally speaking Bordeaux is not really defined by terroir, and nowadays works more like a brand and a geographical concentration of modern wine making skill en masse? And in the case of its true traditional chatêaus, are their second/third/fourth labels worth getting?

They’re called Os Goliardos, and yes, Beaujolais is fairly well represented in their stock. You’re dead right when it comes to musicians: other than my dad and his associates, I’ve learned the most from my wine loving colleagues.

These are great tips and a great summary. Thank you! I’ve gone to quite a few verticals, but in Portugal they deal with domestic wines much more commonly than foreign ones (that Riesling tasting was an exception, and it was led by a Brazilian sommelier with long experience as an importer).

I wouldn’t cal us poor sods, but our minimum wage is 600€. A young doctor in a public hospital makes little more than the French minimum wage. This has a lot of reflex on the lower end of the price spectrum - you can get genuinely good wines for under 10€ with relative ease - but those are made by the same producers who churn out the expensive stuff, which seems to me to contrast with France’s classification system. There’s no budget Lafite that I’m aware of! What I mean is (with the exception of Barca Velha and Pêra Manca) a direct comparison between wines of similar categories, or similar ambitions, between Portugal and other regions will place the Portuguese wines at lower prices, generally speaking.

Indeed, and that’s why I’ve been lurking this forum so long. There is a learning barrier, however, when you’re not engaging with the same pre-existing knowledge, and that’s what prompted this post. I find it easier to take notes for myself when I find topics with tasting notes, rather than topics which, for instance, debate the latest vintage of a certain producer vis a vis their previous ones. I’m not familiar with the producer and what is expected from them, or the environment they’re working on. I’m hoping I will some day.

If my background in music is any help, I’ll probably feel like I’m just getting started regardless of my point in the journey. [cheers.gif]

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Well Tomas - if it’s any help, my wife is a musician as were her parents and they all love wine and it turned out that many of their friends did and still do, so there’s a whole network of people you’re already in the midst of. BTW, what is your instrument?

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I’m a violinist. The music-wine parallel is definitely there… I’ve seen it far too many times for it not to be a pattern. They’re both about elevating your sensory experience to levels far beyond the common in daily life, and both involve great amounts of craft and subjectivity. It doesn’t surprise me, really.

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I’ve visited Caves Sao Joao several times and hand carried magnums back home. You’re right, the prices are almost ridiculously inexpensive. I generally visit Portugal once or twice a year. I was supposed to go the first week in May, but that’s now on hold. My current favorite winery is Herdade do Mouchao. I’m trying to build a vertical of their tinto and Tonel 3-4. I’m also trying to learn more about the talhas wines from Alentejo.

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(1) There is a huge split in Bordeaux between wines from wineries that have chosen to go modern and wineries that still make traditional wines. It is not all or nothing. The thread you are reading goes into which wines are in which categories.

(2) Most Bordeauxs, even with the best intention, are made using blends of grapes, a decent amount of new oak and from relatively large parcels of property. As a result, even the most traditionally made Bordeaux is never going to show terroir as much as a wine from a small winery from small plots in Burgundy made from one more transparent grape variety (Pinot Noir).

But, to me, if you want to learn the classics, you have to start with Bordeaux and Burgundy. THESE ARE THE CLASSICS. They are the most famous wine regions in the world, and for a reason. They are the birthplace to most of the top “international” grape varieties used the world over today. You can drink well made less expensive wines from these regions, but you need at least a rudimentary education in these two regions if you want to walk before you run, IMHO.

And, most of the top producers in Bordeaux and Burgundy DO make more and less expensive wines. The family that owns Lafite owns a number of wineries, but most of theirs in Bordeaux are still expensive. But a lot of other top wineries make less expensive wines. See for example Chateau Clinet in Pomerol makes an inexpensive wine called Ronin. My trip to Bordeaux - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

In Burgundy, most top wineries make a range of wines starting with regional wines (Bourgogne Rouge or Blanc) and going up in quality and cost to grand crus.

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I agree with what Howard said. It is true that you are probably not gonna get as nitty-gritty terroir with Bordeaux as burgundy, but there is definitely a difference between a classically made Margaux and St Julien. there really (sometimes for better and sometimes for worse) has been a big split in styles in bordeaux though, depending on owner and consultant. but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a great deal of good wine. I suggest starting with what they’ve got and then asking them for somewhere you can order from in order to keep learning. a lot of times a good wine shop will know when you’re looking for something they don’t have and help you out. they also may have access to far more than what’s on their shelf! Our local shop orders a couple bottles here and there for me all the time

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I think you have it a lot better than you think. A lot of people on here don’t live near great wine regions, or perhaps have a literal handful of nearby quality producers. They’re in restrictive shipping states with poor retail options. So, there’s a lot of bumbling around in the dark, looking to media and forum suggestions. Not saying they don’t drink well, but many miss out on a lot of amazing lower priced wines. Maybe some negative reinforcement behind that.

It sounds like this warehouse has an amazingly curated selection to explore. You’re also in a country with a lot of exciting stuff going on with all the distinct, unique native grapes. We should all be jealous.

As far as Spain goes, I’m particularly fond of the wines of Ribeira Sacra. Especially Algueira. Wonderfully aromatic, purely expressive.

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Another point: While you may desire some commonality between what you’re reading about, such as wines people are discussing here, which is important, it is also great to have some things you can bring to the table, so to speak. The world of wine is so broad that no one knows everything. You can be a very valuable contributor to this forum. Maybe meet up with folks who travel to your country. This is a great hobby involving a lot of wonderful people.

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Lots of good advice here, but I will reinforce one path to wine education: find people near where you live who love wine. Meet them, dine with them, share bottles and conversation. I have done this and made wonderful lifelong friends while learning a ton about wine.

You can find them here! Post in the Offline board for interest in a local ‘bring a bottle’ dinner. Don’t worry about a theme. ‘Bring something you like and want to share’ is low pressure. Find a local restaurant that has decent food and offer to take a big table on a Monday or Tuesday (i.e. a slow night). Some of my favorite restaurants have ‘zero corkage Tuesday.’ Tip big and they’ll invite you back over and over.

Your new friends will guide you down surprising paths and you will rapidly learn what you like and don’t like. And don’t worry about trying everything. You can’t! But you will learn fast.

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I consider myself to be very blessed. I have tasted a lot of wonderful stuff which didn’t come out of my pocket, I know a good deal of the wineries in Douro and Alentejo with my own eyes and pair of feet, and I get free entrance to some of the country’s biggest wine events. These events are overwhelming: there are a poopload of producers in Portugal nowadays, and I walk away after three days of wine marathon with the sensation that I haven’t tasted much more than a drop in an ocean of possibilities. Then I come to a forum such as this, where most talk is France and US West Coast, and realize I’ve been living in a different planet. The wine world is truly humongous.

As for the warehouse (Os Goliardos), they’re a bunch of amazingly friendly and unpretentious wine nerds who spent years living abroad, came back to Lisbon and started selling from many biological/biodynamic/otherwise less interventive, terroir inspired producers from virtually all regions in Europe, who they got to know personally and whose products they’ve been tasting for a long time. Every winery on their portfolio is a place they’ve visited and know intimately, so even though I like to do my research before I order anything, I always have complete trust in whatever they have in their catalogue. Best part? Hardly anything they sell is over 80€. Worst part? I can’t find a single soul who can relate to my purchases! One of their Bordeaux producers is a couple who owns three hectars of land. It’s a miracle their wines made it to another country.

I love the whites in Rias Baixas, which form somewhat of a transnational wine region as they are contiguous with the Vinhos Verdes, but I am yet to better explore Galicia in terms of its winemaking (I’ve been familiar with, and in love with, their seafood since childhood). One of my latest purchases from that warehouse was a wonderful red from Monterrei, a Bastardo based blend, so yours is a great tip.

If I were still in Lisbon with no pandemic going on (I’m taking refuge at my parents’, many miles away) I would definitely be going on Meetup to find something like that… Or maybe start a group of my own. It’s a shame there won’t be much traveling done in the near future. I’d love to be cicerone to anyone from the forum who happened to come here.

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I love the whites in Rias Baixas, which form somewhat of a transnational wine region as they are contiguous with the Vinhos Verdes, but I am yet to better explore Galicia in terms of its winemaking (I’ve been familiar with, and in love with, their seafood since childhood). One of my latest purchases from that warehouse was a wonderful red from Monterrei, a Bastardo based blend, so yours is a great tip.

Most of the Galician reds I see here are Mencia and a few Mencia dominant old vine field blends. The best two reds were both from Algueira, and also the best examples of those two grapes I’ve had. Merenzao (aka Bastardo, Trousseau) and Brancelao (aka Alvarelhao). So good I want to visit. So good (along with the quality of Galician wines in general and some other factors) a friend is looking at moving there.

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Andy had some great points which I totally second.

I know this is beside the point, but fixed it for you in bold :slight_smile: There are tons of classical music fans in the world who haven’t heard of any German composer’s work [Till a decade back you could have added me to that list]. Simiarly, there are many wine fans who haven’t enjoyed classics from Barolo or Bdx or Mosel or [insert any region you like].

Just like in music, jump in and let the journey take you. Drink what you like not what others prefer!

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Hi Subu! If you’ll allow me to momentarily go off topic, I would argue that the ‘classical music’ moniker is inappropriate at best. What we call ‘classical music’ in the West ought to be called Western Art Music, as its defining criteria is the creation and reproduction of the music through written (western) musical notation - as opposed to, say, what is refered to as Indian classical music, which is not only a fundamentally oral tradition but also based on an intonation system unheard of in the West before the mid 20th century, and never quite applied the same way. Long story short, we’re using ‘classical music’ to refer to both apples and oranges. A bit like comparing wine with ‘barley wine’ (a beer/ale, which I happen to love).

Wine is wine. Some of it more industrial, some of it the product of winery artisans. Some of it more interventive, some of it more ‘natural’ (a deliberately vague term). There are myriads of different techniques and philosophies which lead to a huge array of contrast in the wine world, but ultimately it’s all fermented grape juice. My two cents. I guess what pains me is the knowledge of how immense, and costly, this wine universe is. I’m not even close to exhausting what’s been going on in my own backyard. Not even 0.1%. And it’s terrific! But there’s a whole wide world out there, and it’s giving me a headache, because the more I read this forum the more I believe I can’t get a good education in Burgundy without seriously compromising my financial future. [cry.gif] I’ll be waiting for the wine tastings to come back and see what happens…