How does Riesling Kabinett change with age?

[John_Morris]

For me, Kabinett at 12-25 years from vintage is usually terrific. I think it’s many times over better as a wine experience than young Kabinett, though I know opinions vary on that.

Young Kabinett to me is more of a tasty fruit beverage experience, while mature Kabinett is much more of a wine experience. Complexity, terroir, cerebral.

If you haven’t experienced how good mature Kabinett is, you really need to find a way. Though it’s not easy to find them, and the best plan for the longer term is to age your own.

My view exactly.

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Agreed
This producer always delivers in aged Kabinett

[David_Bu3ker]

Agreed
This producer always delivers in aged Kabinett

Such a great vintage for Prüm.

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

Agreed
This producer always delivers in aged Kabinett

I look forward to opening one of my mags of 2015 JJ Prum WS Kabinett for my 50th birthday.

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Agreed
This producer always delivers in aged Kabinett

I look forward to opening one of my mags of 2015 JJ Prum WS Kabinett for my 50th birthday.

And when is that Brian?

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

Agreed
This producer always delivers in aged Kabinett

I look forward to opening one of my mags of 2015 JJ Prum WS Kabinett for my 50th birthday.

And when is that Brian?

January 2037

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Perfect

[Pau1_M3nk3s]

For me, Kabinett at 12-25 years from vintage is usually terrific. I think it’s many times over better as a wine experience than young Kabinett, though I know opinions vary on that.

Young Kabinett to me is more of a tasty fruit beverage experience, while mature Kabinett is much more of a wine experience. Complexity, terroir, cerebral.

If you haven’t experienced how good mature Kabinett is, you really need to find a way. Though it’s not easy to find them, and the best plan for the longer term is to age your own.

My view exactly.

I’m working on it!

[Jayson_Cohen]

David touches on a major point. Mosel-Saar-Ruwer Riesling Kabinetts used to be my go-to everyday whites, but the wines I drank in the '60s - '80s simply no longer exist.

I was drinking wines with 7 - 9% alcohol, ~1% residual sugar, ~1% titratable acidity and ~3.0pH. For me, these were the wines of the Gods. From basics such as the Cooperative in Ayl to Maximin Grunhaus Abtsberg, they were simply the most refreshing wines I’ve ever had, or could imagine. Due to a combination of changes in viticulture and global warming, these wines are no longer made. If I had the time for another career, I would plant Riesling on the coast of Norway.

As David said, the must weights are set, but it is now rare for anybody to pick Riesling below the weight for Spatlese. I no longer bother to investigate, but it wouldn’t surprise me if half of the wines labeled ‘Kabinett’ were picked at Auslese levels.

Dan Kravitz

Dan your should try a Hofgut Falkenstein Krettnacher Euchariusberg Riesling Kabinett Alte Reben. It leaves many other Mosel Kabinetts with a kind of too fruity or clumsy expression.
Kabinetts that tasted on their own are stellar examples.

I had the ‘18 two weeks ago, and it was pretty remarkable. My favorite of the ~6 Falkensteins I’ve tried from 2018. Finding it is another story. Supply is very tight in the U.S.

[R_Frankel]

I look forward to opening one of my mags of 2015 JJ Prum WS Kabinett for my 50th birthday.

And when is that Brian?

January 2037

I’ve had both the 2015 and the 2001 in the last few weeks. I hope the 2015 will be as good as that 2001 in 17 years, and have no reason to think it won’t.

I’m less sure about my preferences. The young wines are steelier, shaper-edged, and a bit more intense. 19 years of age softens those edges, mellows out the fruit and amps up the texture. Some of the fruit is replaced by smoky herbal notes. Both are delicious!

[John_Morris]

I opened a Maximin Grünhaus/von Schubert 2002 QbA this week, 18 years old and perfect for sipping on one of the view days of late when it was comfortable to sit outside at cocktail hour.

I tasted at the property on a visit in September 2003. Dr. von Schubert matter-of-factly said then that the '02 QbA would go for 20 years easily, and he was right.

Popped and poured, it was remarkably fresh and young – still quite primary, without any real gasoline notes. Of course, there was a good backbone of Ruwer acid.

Day 2 (refrigerated in between) it showed more layers and honey. A big step up from day 1. It’s lost just a trace of sweetness, but Ruwer wines always have so much acid that they’re pretty tart even young.

Not the same complexity you’d ordinarily get in a good Kabinett at this age, but a fine, interesting wine. And there’s no rush to drink this. Glad I have more.

So … to answer the original question, from the best producers, even low-level rieslings can take a long time to evolve.

[Jim_Stewart]

I opened a Maximin Grünhaus/von Schubert 2002 QbA this week, 18 years old and perfect for sipping on one of the view days of late when it was comfortable to sit outside at cocktail hour.

I tasted at the property on a visit in September 2003. Dr. von Schubert matter-of-factly said then that the '02 QbA would go for 20 years easily, and he was right.

Popped and poured, it was remarkably fresh and young – still quite primary, without any real gasoline notes. Of course, there was a good backbone of Ruwer acid.

Day 2 (refrigerated in between) it showed more layers and honey. A big step up from day 1. It’s lost just a trace of sweetness, but Ruwer wines always have so much acid that they’re pretty tart even young.

Not the same complexity you’d ordinarily get in a good Kabinett at this age, but a fine, interesting wine. And there’s no rush to drink this. Glad I have more.

So … to answer the original question, from the best producers, even low-level rieslings can take a long time to evolve.

I just happened to be on when I saw your post, John. I think the connection to your visit in 2003 and the comment is very cool! A QbA - wow impressive. Are they even made anymore? Thanks for sharing the note and the memory. Cheers -Jim

[Jayson_Cohen]

I opened a Maximin Grünhaus/von Schubert 2002 QbA this week, 18 years old and perfect for sipping on one of the view days of late when it was comfortable to sit outside at cocktail hour.

I tasted at the property on a visit in September 2003. Dr. von Schubert matter-of-factly said then that the '02 QbA would go for 20 years easily, and he was right.

Popped and poured, it was remarkably fresh and young – still quite primary, without any real gasoline notes. Of course, there was a good backbone of Ruwer acid.

Day 2 (refrigerated in between) it showed more layers and honey. A big step up from day 1. It’s lost just a trace of sweetness, but Ruwer wines always have so much acid that they’re pretty tart even young.

Not the same complexity you’d ordinarily get in a good Kabinett at this age, but a fine, interesting wine. And there’s no rush to drink this. Glad I have more.

So … to answer the original question, from the best producers, even low-level rieslings can take a long time to evolve.

Thanks, John. Sounds delightful.

Judging by the photo, you are not sheltering on the UWS. Looks nice. Where are you?

[David_Bu3ker]

I opened a Maximin Grünhaus/von Schubert 2002 QbA this week, 18 years old and perfect for sipping on one of the view days of late when it was comfortable to sit outside at cocktail hour.

I tasted at the property on a visit in September 2003. Dr. von Schubert matter-of-factly said then that the '02 QbA would go for 20 years easily, and he was right.

Popped and poured, it was remarkably fresh and young – still quite primary, without any real gasoline notes. Of course, there was a good backbone of Ruwer acid.

Day 2 (refrigerated in between) it showed more layers and honey. A big step up from day 1. It’s lost just a trace of sweetness, but Ruwer wines always have so much acid that they’re pretty tart even young.

Not the same complexity you’d ordinarily get in a good Kabinett at this age, but a fine, interesting wine. And there’s no rush to drink this. Glad I have more.

So … to answer the original question, from the best producers, even low-level rieslings can take a long time to evolve.

I just happened to be on when I saw your post, John. I think the connection to your visit in 2003 and the comment is very cool! A QbA - wow impressive. Are they even made anymore? Thanks for sharing the note and the memory. Cheers -Jim

The wines are still made, they just go by a different designation. Most wineries now call them “Estate Riesling” or some such. I don’t exactly remember what Grunhaus did with their bottling.

FWIW, the 2001 version is drop dead gorgeous.

[Dan_Kravitz]

An abbreviated Maximin Grunhaus anecdote. Originally posted on Mark Golodetz’s thread about ‘10 most influential wines’:

1953 Maximin Grunhaus Abtsberg Natur (from 375ml) – Consumed in the mid 90’s, served blind at dinner by owner Carl von Schubert to me and Robert Parker at my Chinese friend Stuart Berman’s restaurant ‘Court of the Mandarins’ in Silver Spring Maryland. Parker, a good taster, says he thinks this has some bottle age, probably late 1980s. I’d been to Grunhaus and thought I knew better, guessed 1971. Hey, better off by 18 years than 35, I guess.

It looked and smelled no more than 5 years old. It had been in the Grunhaus cellar 24 hours before it was opened, after gently mouldering there for 40+ years. It was great wine.

Dan Kravitz

[John_Morris]

Judging by the photo, you are not sheltering on the UWS. Looks nice. Where are you?

In the Catskills, in that case on a friend’s deck with an epic view.

[John_Morris]

An abbreviated Maximin Grunhaus anecdote. Originally posted on Mark Golodetz’s thread about ‘10 most influential wines’:

1953 Maximin Grunhaus Abtsberg Natur (from 375ml) – Consumed in the mid 90’s, served blind at dinner by owner Carl von Schubert to me and Robert Parker at my Chinese friend Stuart Berman’s restaurant ‘Court of the Mandarins’ in Silver Spring Maryland. Parker, a good taster, says he thinks this has some bottle age, probably late 1980s. I’d been to Grunhaus and thought I knew better, guessed 1971. Hey, better off by 18 years than 35, I guess.

It looked and smelled no more than 5 years old. It had been in the Grunhaus cellar 24 hours before it was opened, after gently mouldering there for 40+ years. It was great wine.

Dan Kravitz

Acid will do that for you.

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

Just curious if any of the other riesling geeks here have tips for retailers or reliable auction sites that see older German kabinett. K&L occasionally has something come through on their new product feed, but their auction side has mostly spatlese and auslese.

[David_Bu3ker]

Just curious if any of the other riesling geeks here have tips for retailers or reliable auction sites that see older German kabinett. K&L occasionally has something come through on their new product feed, but their auction side has mostly spatlese and auslese.

Kabinett is for drinking, not selling!

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

Just curious if any of the other riesling geeks here have tips for retailers or reliable auction sites that see older German kabinett. K&L occasionally has something come through on their new product feed, but their auction side has mostly spatlese and auslese.

Kabinett is for drinking, not selling!

That’s why I figured I never see older kabinett for sale lol, thought I’d try