If Oregon had Grand Crus...

[Jim_Anderson]

As I noted, you have to walk before you can run. And also that codification might have to take a significant period of time to allow vine age to be established.

But when a long journey looms, the end is accomplished sooner by beginning right away.

Also-your characterization of the process as inherently premature and inaccurate seems biased. Especially given how good a job the industry has done with AVAs so far. While probably not perfect, I have no major quibble of any kind with the AVAs as established. Except perhaps to add a few new ones, the Cherry Grove/Patton Valley area has a very distinct nature in my opinion, and to sub-divide the ones that are too big(Chehalem) and take the obvious next step of delineating differences within the existing ones(Oracle and Durant share the common thread of the Dundee Hills but are very different terroirs).

Shooting a horse before it’s born makes no sense to me. Nor does branding it a donkey until one has seen the ears.

I don’t know why consumers would be more confused by a correction than they already would be?
Particularly if the process is primarily focused on noting distinctions, includes more wide ranging levels of high quality(1er Cru does this in Burgundy) and a producer can always do as we do now and demonstrate their own belief in a site by designating the site on the bottle.

Right now there’s no real information at all unless one has significant drinking experience.

There are lots of issues that woukd arise, and I could argue against this pretty easily, even from the standpoint that if we designated a site Grand Cru and the producer still slathered the wine in new oak, enzymes, and coldsoak then it would give even more credence to a consumer walking away from the region. But I would take that risk, because Burgundy hasn’t received crazy attention for no reason. Wine quality is one, but the digestibility of the story a region that is fragmented into vinous tidbits is impressive and leaves a lot to be explored.

I don’t know that I care about GC sites as much as I care about creating a region with a continuity to it that celebrated the diversity of the sites. And the classification system in Burgundy does that better than anywhere else. GC vineyards in Burgundy are a tiny percentage, and in codifying Oregon that percentage shouldn’t be exceeded, and the path to that designation should be as stringent as it gets.

Briefly, how did the AVA system in Oregon come about in a way that has been amiable? Who were the players who made that happen? And how do you envision it possibly happen for vineyard designation? There would have to be a lot of hurt feelings. I can think of one producer who has on his website that his vineyard could be considered GC, yet no one on this thread mentioned the vineyard. And if you think of the mentioned vineyards, most of them have been in Ribbon Ridge, Dundee, or Eola-Amity.

It wasn’t all easy and it wasn’t all fun. Some people put in a lot of work. Some people were complete dicks. I was neither. But I saw both up close and personal.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

As I noted, you have to walk before you can run. And also that codification might have to take a significant period of time to allow vine age to be established.

But when a long journey looms, the end is accomplished sooner by beginning right away.

Also-your characterization of the process as inherently premature and inaccurate seems biased. Especially given how good a job the industry has done with AVAs so far. While probably not perfect, I have no major quibble of any kind with the AVAs as established. Except perhaps to add a few new ones, the Cherry Grove/Patton Valley area has a very distinct nature in my opinion, and to sub-divide the ones that are too big(Chehalem) and take the obvious next step of delineating differences within the existing ones(Oracle and Durant share the common thread of the Dundee Hills but are very different terroirs).

Shooting a horse before it’s born makes no sense to me. Nor does branding it a donkey until one has seen the ears.

I don’t know why consumers would be more confused by a correction than they already would be?
Particularly if the process is primarily focused on noting distinctions, includes more wide ranging levels of high quality(1er Cru does this in Burgundy) and a producer can always do as we do now and demonstrate their own belief in a site by designating the site on the bottle.

Right now there’s no real information at all unless one has significant drinking experience.

There are lots of issues that woukd arise, and I could argue against this pretty easily, even from the standpoint that if we designated a site Grand Cru and the producer still slathered the wine in new oak, enzymes, and coldsoak then it would give even more credence to a consumer walking away from the region. But I would take that risk, because Burgundy hasn’t received crazy attention for no reason. Wine quality is one, but the digestibility of the story a region that is fragmented into vinous tidbits is impressive and leaves a lot to be explored.

I don’t know that I care about GC sites as much as I care about creating a region with a continuity to it that celebrated the diversity of the sites. And the classification system in Burgundy does that better than anywhere else. GC vineyards in Burgundy are a tiny percentage, and in codifying Oregon that percentage shouldn’t be exceeded, and the path to that designation should be as stringent as it gets.

Briefly, how did the AVA system in Oregon come about in a way that has been amiable? Who were the players who made that happen? And how do you envision it possibly happen for vineyard designation? There would have to be a lot of hurt feelings. I can think of one producer who has on his website that his vineyard could be considered GC, yet no one on this thread mentioned the vineyard. And if you think of the mentioned vineyards, most of them have been in Ribbon Ridge, Dundee, or Eola-Amity.

The AVA approval process is fairly intricate and requires a lot of hoops to be jumped through. In creating and delineating the AC
VAs, vineyards within the region had a voice(if they chose) in the decision making process. It was just ahead of my time, and I do know of a few things that created quite a bit of friction between a few producers but it was pretty minor in the big picture of the next 1000 years. The process had several well recognized supporters and plenty of folks who don’t currently use the AVAs.

Moving to a vineyard level would most assuredly involve LOTS of hurt feelings. People have their entire lives wrapped up in vineyards, and the cost of establishment and risks are enormous.

But as Rich noted, the process should take significant time, and in my opinion the criteria for GC would be very, very stringent. The criteria for a second tier, a la 1er Cru could be slightly more wide ranging, and to be fair…I think Oregon does have the ability to rival 1er Cru wines in quality(not copy) from a decent range of the AVAs. But the base assumption would need to be that lieu dits can produce great wines. And the cru status should be reserved for wines of significant distinction.

I would guess the process to get 1er Cru status should take roughly as long as getting season seats for Packers games.

Producer and vintage are important, and while great sites should make great wines, a hack could screw up fruit from Romanee Conti. So filtering for producer is important.

Last-as Jim said, everybody wants to be GC so websites will say what they want. And there’s more money and ego than when the AVAs were created.

Executing this isn’t likely, and it’s a hypothetical as Matt noted.

But as an idea for great vineyards in the Willamette Valley that are special sites, no one has mentioned Bethel Heights SE Block and Flat Block. No one has mentioned Cristom Marjorie(being replanted).

Those are sites that equal, IMO, any site mentioned in this thread. So who can say?

[Todd_Hamina]

Right, I was at Patton Valley Vineyard at the time and my recollection is of some pretty heated arguements. But hey, water under the bridge now.

[dougwilder]

Ridgecrest (not just for PN).

[Mattstolz]

But as an idea for great vineyards in the Willamette Valley that are special sites, no one has mentioned Bethel Heights SE Block and Flat Block. No one has mentioned Cristom Marjorie(being replanted).

Those are sites that equal, IMO, any site mentioned in this thread. So who can say?

I thought about mentioning those sites, but the only bottles of them ive ever picked up are still sitting in my cellar. lol

Briefly, how did the AVA system in Oregon come about in a way that has been amiable? Who were the players who made that happen? And how do you envision it possibly happen for vineyard designation? There would have to be a lot of hurt feelings. I can think of one producer who has on his website that his vineyard could be considered GC, yet no one on this thread mentioned the vineyard. And if you think of the mentioned vineyards, most of them have been in Ribbon Ridge, Dundee, or Eola-Amity.

I’m still not quite sure how I feel about Guildsomm at this point, and I know how I feel about Kruth… but there is a pretty good guildsomm podcast about the process with David Adelsheim

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

But as an idea for great vineyards in the Willamette Valley that are special sites, no one has mentioned Bethel Heights SE Block and Flat Block. No one has mentioned Cristom Marjorie(being replanted).

Those are sites that equal, IMO, any site mentioned in this thread. So who can say?

I thought about mentioning those sites, but the only bottles of them ive ever picked up are still sitting in my cellar. lol

Briefly, how did the AVA system in Oregon come about in a way that has been amiable? Who were the players who made that happen? And how do you envision it possibly happen for vineyard designation? There would have to be a lot of hurt feelings. I can think of one producer who has on his website that his vineyard could be considered GC, yet no one on this thread mentioned the vineyard. And if you think of the mentioned vineyards, most of them have been in Ribbon Ridge, Dundee, or Eola-Amity.

I’m still not quite sure how I feel about Guildsomm at this point, and I know how I feel about Kruth… but there is a pretty good guildsomm podcast about the process with David Adelsheim

I just picked up my lot from the Herbfarm sale. I’m super excited to dig into the 1993s(also 1992 Bethel Heights Chenin Blanc). I may have over spent my budget a bit, but looking at how good the fills are on everything, I am pretty pleased at the wines.

[Charlie_Gierling]

Btw, any good maps where I can see these Crus?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Btw, any good maps where I can see these Crus?

There is a new map of Willamette Valley wine country that is a definite improvement on the old AVA maps(these are still on the WVWA site I believe), that is done in a style similar to the map of the Cote d’Or. But it is still somewhat confusing in places(IMO). It’s an improvement but I hope will be refined again in a few years.

[Max_S1]

Btw, any good maps where I can see these Crus?

There is a new map of Willamette Valley wine country that is a definite improvement on the old AVA maps(these are still on the WVWA site I believe), that is done in a style similar to the map of the Cote d’Or. But it is still somewhat confusing in places(IMO). It’s an improvement but I hope will be refined again in a few years.

Is this the new one: American Viticultural Areas | Willamette Valley Wineries

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Btw, any good maps where I can see these Crus?

There is a new map of Willamette Valley wine country that is a definite improvement on the old AVA maps(these are still on the WVWA site I believe), that is done in a style similar to the map of the Cote d’Or. But it is still somewhat confusing in places(IMO). It’s an improvement but I hope will be refined again in a few years.

Is this the new one: American Viticultural Areas | Willamette Valley Wineries

No, but if you go to the Willamette Valley Merchandise portion, the more detailed map is just after the Pendleton wool blanket

I love Pendleton and wear their shirt jackets in the cellar all the time…maybe they can do a weave of the AVA map on a blanket.

[Megan_Joy]

Btw, any good maps where I can see these Crus?

There is a new map of Willamette Valley wine country that is a definite improvement on the old AVA maps(these are still on the WVWA site I believe), that is done in a style similar to the map of the Cote d’Or. But it is still somewhat confusing in places(IMO). It’s an improvement but I hope will be refined again in a few years.

The map is soils based, which is pretty interesting. The soil lines are definitely not exact, I would imagine both for artistic and logistical reasons, but it does mean that you should not take its word as absolute fact (for example: the soils of Oracle Vineyard are incorrectly marked as being sedimentary, while they are quite obviously volcanic). It also does not offer nuances within soil types, the most well known volcanic soils for vineyards here are the clay based Jory and Nekia, but there are other types that are still volcanic, and would be very different from a terroir perspective.

It is also a little awkward getting used to East being the top of the map and North being to the left… but overall it is the best I have seen of the region so far. It gives a good view of where some of the vineyards that have been mentioned in this thread are, where they are in relation to each other, and also how much is unplanted and unknown.

$75 for your own copy, though if you search maps of the Willamette Valley and take a look at images you can see previews of it.

[Max_S1]

No, but if you go to the Willamette Valley Merchandise portion, the more detailed map is just after the Pendleton wool blanket

The UI on that site is interesting… but also, I followed that map through to everyvine.com which I hadn’t seen before. It shows all the vineyards and the AVA areas (using the search bar at the top, you can see Napa and other US regions as well - not sure what, if any, international ones): https://everyvine.com/Pages/Profile?id=55&type=Wineregion

[Rodrigo_B]

Really cool interactive map on the Everyvine. Interesting to be able to see some more granular information. Like here’s Fir Crest, where you can see some of the different blocks, clones planted, age of vines, elevation, etc. Still seems like a work in progress though. Not much information on soil types and some missing vineyard information, for example, not much granular information on Patricia Green’s Estate Vineyard and their blocks. But overall the most detailed information I’ve been able to gather for the WV. Hopefully they continue to add to the database

[Jim_Anderson]

Really cool interactive map on the Everyvine. Interesting to be able to see some more granular information. Like here’s Fir Crest, where you can see some of the different blocks, clones planted, age of vines, elevation, etc. Still seems like a work in progress though. Not much information on soil types and some missing vineyard information, for example, not much granular information on Patricia Green’s Estate Vineyard and their blocks. But overall the most detailed information I’ve been able to gather for the WV. Hopefully they continue to add to the database

Everyvine requires the vineyard owner (or someone involved) to enter the data. It isn’t entirely difficult but it’s also not 100% user friendly.

[Saul_Mutchnick]

Everyvine used to have much more information about soils/aspect/elevation for the vineyards—but for some reason much of it disappeared last year. If you’re feeling ambitious, you can use Everyvine to pull a vineyard address/location and then use the USGS’ Web Soil Survey (Web Soil Survey - Home) to get the rest of the information. (Rodrigo, this seems right up your alley)

[Rodrigo_B]

Everyvine used to have much more information about soils/aspect/elevation for the vineyards—but for some reason much of it disappeared last year. If you’re feeling ambitious, you can use Everyvine to pull a vineyard address/location and then use the USGS’ Web Soil Survey (Web Soil Survey - Home) to get the rest of the information. (Rodrigo, this seems right up your alley)

Down another Willamette Valley rabbit hole I go it seems…

Thanks for the link and more background information on Everyvine.

Given what you said, I was getting ready to send them an email and ask them about it since it sounded like it might just be a data pull error. But after looking at their website more thoroughly the lack of soil information seems deliberate. Seems they deliberately put that information behind a paywall and include that as part of one of their membership tiers, which makes sense since there is a cost to running a database of that size.

[Charlie_Gierling]

Thank you

[CJ_Beazley]

Glad there aren’t Grand Crus in the WV. Lots of freedom for winemakers to show their skills and make the best of a wide range of vineyards…some 20+ miles from each other. Better than the fierce bickering about whether the row 20 feet over is GC or 1er and worth the extra $250+/bottle…or not, because it’s a family legacy with allegedly under-performing progeny at the helm.

RT

So I’ll take the Devil’s Advocate to this.

\

1. the average knowledge base on this board is in the top 1% of consumers. The remaining 99% know basically nothing about Willamette Valley wines and are either picking by label, marketing, samples, visits, and word of mouth(or server recommendation). Vineyard delineation would help give them some confidence and an idea that the industry here is not a novelty(which is literally the word used by a a very nice, and very honest, wine shop employee I spoke with in a big mid-Western city a couple of years ago.)

2. there is plenty of fierce bickering by the “important folks” in the valley. Mostly over prestige and money.

3. nothing guides pricing within any of the wineries. Mark Tarlov makes a $300 wine and says he’s “starting a conversation”. There’s no rhyme or reason to his choice in pricing. I get that he’s kind of trying to validate the Willamette Valley on a world stage but am really not sure this works. I do think that vineyard delineation would help with this issue.

4. there’s so little information on the Willamette Valley and vineyards here, and that’s a huge disadvatage on a world stage. What information we have is slowly being brought together by the community.

5. codification doesn’t need to restrict the varieties planted the way Burgundy does. That was a separate act in Burgundy.

6. while smaller houses would be pushed out by wealthier buyers…that’s happening regardless. Codification would at least increase the purchase price for the current owners.

He passed away
“Mark Tarlov, Hollywood Producer Turned Oregon Vintner, Dies at Age 69”

Mark Tarlov, Hollywood Producer Turned Oregon Vintner, Dies at Age 69

[Jim_Anderson]

Glad there aren’t Grand Crus in the WV. Lots of freedom for winemakers to show their skills and make the best of a wide range of vineyards…some 20+ miles from each other. Better than the fierce bickering about whether the row 20 feet over is GC or 1er and worth the extra $250+/bottle…or not, because it’s a family legacy with allegedly under-performing progeny at the helm.

RT

So I’ll take the Devil’s Advocate to this.

\

1. the average knowledge base on this board is in the top 1% of consumers. The remaining 99% know basically nothing about Willamette Valley wines and are either picking by label, marketing, samples, visits, and word of mouth(or server recommendation). Vineyard delineation would help give them some confidence and an idea that the industry here is not a novelty(which is literally the word used by a a very nice, and very honest, wine shop employee I spoke with in a big mid-Western city a couple of years ago.)

2. there is plenty of fierce bickering by the “important folks” in the valley. Mostly over prestige and money.

3. nothing guides pricing within any of the wineries. Mark Tarlov makes a $300 wine and says he’s “starting a conversation”. There’s no rhyme or reason to his choice in pricing. I get that he’s kind of trying to validate the Willamette Valley on a world stage but am really not sure this works. I do think that vineyard delineation would help with this issue.

4. there’s so little information on the Willamette Valley and vineyards here, and that’s a huge disadvatage on a world stage. What information we have is slowly being brought together by the community.

5. codification doesn’t need to restrict the varieties planted the way Burgundy does. That was a separate act in Burgundy.

6. while smaller houses would be pushed out by wealthier buyers…that’s happening regardless. Codification would at least increase the purchase price for the current owners.

He passed away
“Mark Tarlov, Hollywood Producer Turned Oregon Vintner, Dies at Age 69”
https://www.winespectator.com/articles/mark-tarlov-hollywood-producer-turned-oregon-vintner-dies?utm_campaign=SipsNTips081721&utm_source=SipsNTips081721&utm_medium=email&utm_content=40a3963e710ba30a959f1361e3e000aa

They could have chosen to speak to other people and had an entirely different article.

[John_Glas]

White Rose when others other than just White Rose were producing wine from the vineyard.