"If You Irrigate, It's Not Terroir..."

[David_Bu3ker]

Terroir - great straw man starter or the greatest straw man starter?

[Phil_T_r_o_t_t_e_r]

Don’t tell the aborigines that. They seem to have done just fine for thousands of years.

True that. I wouldn’t last one winter. It seems I am not terroir driven.

[Brian_Gilp]

I’ve had this discussion a number of times with Oregon winemakers (See: Dry Roots Coalition). In its very simple form, without irrigation, roots are forced to dig deep into the ground, thus encountering various geological layers of soil and minerals which impart more complex flavors to the grapes and wine. Vines that are not required to do this will say close to the surface thus missing out on the soil minerals found deeper. One person I was discussing this with said that they had pulled out some vines that had always been irrigated. The roots went down about 18 inches and then actually curved back towards the surface (their easy source of water). So do the irrigated vines reflect terroir? Yes. Literally surface terroir. The non-irrigation proponents are saying that below the surface is a deeper, more complex terroir which more fully reflect the place.

I don’t believe this is a universal truth. My home vineyard (east coast, 37 inches rain annual ave) is all planted on either 101-14 or riparia rootstock. Spacing is 3 X 3 and soil is largely sand and well drained. Oldest vines are now on their 15th leaf. I have never irrigated not even to establish first year vines*. When I have had to pull out vines, I have noted that roots are primarily contained within the first 18 inches with one layer just below the surface and the other about 12-18 inches down. I haven’t yet had to remove a vine that had significant root structure at the much below the 2 foot mark. I attribute this to the rootstock. Both rootstocks are known to be shallow rooted and used to reduce vine vigor. So I believe that rootstock matters as well as soil structure and irrigation when discussing root depth and any impact it has on the final product.

*Two exceptions for irrigation. The roussanne is drought prone and will require irrigation during long periods without rain during the summer or fall. It is the only of the 17 varieties that I grow/have grown that has this issue. Also, there is a section of vineyard that is roughly 20’ X 20’ that drains exceptionally well and will show drought stress when the rest of the vineyard is fine.

[Greg_Kramer]

There are whole wine regions that are really only possible because of irrigation. Mendoza in Argentina comes to the top of my mind.

But maybe they shouldn’t be growing wine grapes there? That’s my take on the original quote. The old phrase “Just because you CAN doesn’t mean you SHOULD” comes to mind. Modern methods make it possible to grow grapes in Walla Walla. But if wine grapes wouldn’t grow there naturally is it really the best place to make wine?

The challenge in such an argument is in defining the parameters. Carrying your questions further, should much of Europe not be growing vines because its rootstocks can’t fend off phylloxera?

Not to mention, how many European vines are truly indigenous to the region in which they are growing? Many were transported from elsewhere and planted in their current locale. I think many of us are guilty of defining terroir (i.e., a wine tasting like where it comes from) by our own frame of reference for it.

I think I could view M. Brunier’s comment with more validity if he had talked about irrigation with respect to best practices rather than terroir.

[Howard_Cooper]

I am going to take a different tack. I think of climate as being part of terroir but not weather (which is part of vintage). I think of irrigation as being more impacting weather, so vintage, rather than climate, or terroir. I guess it could be argued the opposite way, but most farming practices impact terroir, vintage, etc., as all of you have said.

[Marshall_Manning]

The challenge in such an argument is in defining the parameters. Carrying your questions further, should much of Europe not be growing vines because its rootstocks can’t fend off phylloxera?

Not to mention, how many European vines are truly indigenous to the region in which they are growing? Many were transported from elsewhere and planted in their current locale. I think many of us are guilty of defining terroir (i.e., a wine tasting like where it comes from) by our own frame of reference for it.

I think I could view M. Brunier’s comment with more validity if he had talked about irrigation with respect to best practices rather than terroir.

Obviously I don’t know Daniel’s position on these questions, but I would personally say that none of these things negate the concept of terroir. Using Oregon as an example, I think that terroir can be expressed here very well, by some of those who post on this board, and others. And they are obviously doing so using non-native grapes. Grapes can express terroir whether it’s their native region or not.

Anything that is done in the winery isn’t terroir, only processes that will mask or accent the terroir.

As Henry said above, it’s definitely possible to make quality wine using irrigation, and I don’t think Daniel was trying to imply otherwise (it was a couple of quick sentences in an hour long interview…Levi didn’t lead him on it any more). I think his question is whether it’s authentic terroir, in the French sense of soil, climate, aspect, wind, weather, etc.

[Peter_Chiu]

Ah, the angels dancing on the head of a pin stuff. Fabulous. A lot of stuff here is either obtuse or trolling. Hard to figure out. The “there’s no terroir if anything happened ever” stuff is hilarious or annoying. It’s not worth addressing in this context where the majority of the posts seem to be simply looking to pick an argument.

BUT…it is fun during covid-19 time

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

Another topic I do not care about. If it tastes good, I like it. If it doesn’t taste good, I do not like it. The opinion of the French Wine Fascists on the “right” way to make wine is irrelevant. Do you think I care whether they irrigated the vineyard 55 years ago?

TN: 1966 Clos Fourtet (France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru)

[Marshall_Manning]

Another topic I do not care about. If it tastes good, I like it. If it doesn’t taste good, I do not like it. The opinion of the French Wine Fascists on the “right” way to make wine is irrelevant. Do you think I care whether they irrigated the vineyard 55 years ago?

TN: 1966 Clos Fourtet (France, Bordeaux, Libournais, St. Émilion Grand Cru) - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

There are many topics here that I don’t care about. So I don’t post in them. If you don’t care, why post?

[Markus_S]

“If you the juice doesn’t ferment in your stomach, it’s not wine.”

[T_Altmayer]

OK, going to stir the pot myself…if a region does not get enough rain to grow a crop, is the “terroir” really worthy of that crop?

It’s not just grapes. Look at the almonds that suck up so much water in California. It’s complete BS.

I assume you do not eat most fruits and vegetables because they are largely irrigated. More importantly, the world would starve without irrigation. But let’s just concern ourselves with authenticity.

[David_Bu3ker]

OK, going to stir the pot myself…if a region does not get enough rain to grow a crop, is the “terroir” really worthy of that crop?

It’s not just grapes. Look at the almonds that suck up so much water in California. It’s complete BS.

I assume you do not eat most fruits and vegetables because they are largely irrigated. More importantly, the world would starve without irrigation. But let’s just concern ourselves with authenticity.

I am only speaking of it as the “terroir” issue. Though I do think the almonds are stupid. What a boring nut.

[Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w]

But if wine grapes wouldn’t grow there naturally is it really the best place to make wine?

I live in Canada. During winter. Electric heating. Maybe humans shouldn’t live there.

Don’t tell the aborigines that. They seem to have done just fine for thousands of years.

How was the wine back in the hunter/gather days?

[James_Sanders]

Take a plot with consistent characteristics in an area that gets sufficient rain. Plant vines. Irrigate half. Dry farm the other. Continue for 20 years. Does anyone seriously think that after 20 years the grapes from the irrigated half will be the same as the dry farmed? Likewise, does anyone seriously think the grapes from the irrigated half will be more reflective of the location?

[Tim_Heaton]

Thanks for posting this, it’s discussion worthy, at least.

I’ve been here, did a single-blind tasting, met the brothers during harvest, seen their vineyards, purchased and enjoyed their wines for a several decades now, etc. That said, I put this (quote?) into the category of “believe half of what you see and none of what you hear”. Such is this, the age of social media, with a dash of ideology thrown in for good measure.

[Taylor_Broussard]

Take a plot with consistent characteristics in an area that gets sufficient rain. Plant vines. Irrigate half. Dry farm the other. Continue for 20 years. Does anyone seriously think that after 20 years the grapes from the irrigated half will be the same as the dry farmed? Likewise, does anyone seriously think the grapes from the irrigated half will be more reflective of the location?

We don’t have to muse about this…there’s first hand experience at Tablas Creek! Dry-Farming - Tablas Creek Vineyard Blog. They’ve been transitioning over time to being completely dry-farmed for a variety of reasons, but the quality differences are certainly real. Many new blocks are planted without irrigation infrastructure at all. Personally I think their En Gobelet (completely dry-farmed, head pruned) has consistently been one of their best wine since I first had it in 2009.

[Arv_R]

“If you drink the wine fast enough it doesn’t have time to turn into alcohol”

We miss you Lucille!

[Anton_D]

Take a plot with consistent characteristics in an area that gets sufficient rain. Plant vines. Irrigate half. Dry farm the other. Continue for 20 years. Does anyone seriously think that after 20 years the grapes from the irrigated half will be the same as the dry farmed? Likewise, does anyone seriously think the grapes from the irrigated half will be more reflective of the location?

If it gets sufficient rain, then the irrigated vineyard would be over-watered. Yes?

Conversely, if we take a plot of land with insufficient rain and did the same comparison, we’d also see differences…or maybe, not…the dry side might be barren at your 20 year mark.

I’m leaving this up to the winemakers.

[ChrisJames]

I live in Canada. During winter. Electric heating. Maybe humans shouldn’t live there.

Don’t tell the aborigines that. They seem to have done just fine for thousands of years.

How was the wine back in the hunter/gather days?

No idea as I’ve never tried it. I’ve also never lived a traditional Inuit lifestyle. I merely reminded the previous poster that humans have lived quite successfully in Canada during the winter without electric heating. Nothing more than that. I made no reference to wine.

[larry_schaffer]

Thanks for posting this, it’s discussion worthy, at least.

I’ve been here, did a single-blind tasting, met the brothers during harvest, seen their vineyards, purchased and enjoyed their wines for a several decades now, etc. That said, I put this (quote?) into the category of “believe half of what you see and none of what you hear”. Such is this, the age of social media, with a dash of ideology thrown in for good measure.

Thank you.

A couple of things:

Many almond farmers have switched over to drip irrigation, reducing their water usage tremendously. But no one wants to hear that.

The Tablas comments are interesting - but Taylor, it is not apples to apples anymore. You have to consider vintage variation, age of vine, etc

There are simply too many variables to come into play here to simplify this discussion - and as Tim stated, ideology certainly comes into play. Might be there be differences? Of course - but no one should ASSUME there are and that’s what’s happening here in many of the comments. There are so many factors that put a veil on ‘terroir’ - it really is a clusterf$*k discussion to have most of the time . . .

Cheers