Been thinking about getting this book so this discussion is great.
Odd that Ladouys is a buy less of because I thought the Decanter reviews of recent vintages showed improvement. I thought those were written by Anson but I’d have to look them up again. We’ve been buying LL for a little while, oldest being 2013. We use it as a cellar saver for Bordeaux/Cabs.
But I will definitely look into some of these other values. Thanks all.
Agree on the sentiments regarding Inside Bordeaux. We bought it last summer and I think it is outstanding. I also agree about the comments regarding Capbern, and I would put the Lilian Ladouys in your ‘1’ category, Tim. For less than $25 I think it is a great value. Another I would add is La Tour De Mons, which you can usually find for under $30. Two others that are popular on this board are Cantemerle and Lanessan. I have not had any recent versions of Lanessan, and there has been some discussion regarding it moving towards a less traditional profile.
Ed
I agree that these tend to be in a similar style - but to me, they do carry a sort of freshness and balance that is very attractive in more classically proportioned years. I’m not tried any 2018s, but I’m not sure I’d use it as a measuring stick, given it stands out as high even when compared to other ripe vintages. Capbern hit 14.6%, but Montrose also clocked in at 14.8%. Capbern was 14% in 2016.
Good point, Vince. When even a wine like Haut-Bages Libéral hits 14.5° in 2018, you know there’s a problem! It’s a vintage I’m going to avoid completely.
I think there is a general problem with the change of climate. It is hard to make classically proportioned wines when the conditions are not the same as before. But also, there are probably a lot of lessons that need to be unlearnt - it was not that long ago that Bordeaux actually lacked ripeness - all the techniques designed to increase concentration and ripening in the vineyard are obsolete. Perhaps some châteaux are afraid too that their customers have got so used to the overripe style that they will not like anything else. In the meantime, I’ve yet to taste a Clos du Jaugueyron that was overripe, so it must be possible!
L-L used to be a wine to only buy in ripe years - long ago I bought 90 and 03 - but is more consistent under new ownership and I bought 14, 16 recently. There seems to be a big market premium for 2016 across St Estephe, but I don’t know if that is really warranted for ‘drinking’ category of wines rather than salable/speculative ones.
What market premium are you seeing? All of the above mentioned wines are in the $20-25 range, and good value for Bordeaux or practically any region. At the next step up, you’ve got Meyney, Dame de Montrose, Lafon Rochet — all outstanding and under $40 (at least at release).
I mean that 2016 for an estate costs more than their same production in vintages like 2014, 2015. Some difference is warranted, but for young wines, it seems like a lot to me. 2016 Phelan Segur vs the 2014 is one example I’ve been keeping an eye on for example.
Really delighted to see these wines mentioned.
Love d’Aiguilhe…have a half dozen of these as well as Joanin Becot 2012 and 15.
The 2015 Capberns were gotten at Costco a few years ago for 20$
Siran 15 too.
The d’Aiguilhe is a favorite Neal.
92 from Wine Spectator
Total wine had some of the 2012 Becot left and I grabbed a few more a month or so ago including a coupon.
Good Stuff!
The above has been the official Bordeaux propaganda line but I’m not sure I buy it. Yes, there is less crude and overt extraction, “Parkerization” than there was, maybe less late picking, that is true. But less intervention? Where is all the new investment going if it’s not going to interventional technologies, more sophisticated grape selection, etc.? I mostly drink pre-2010 Bordeaux, but from dipping my toe into more recent vintages many wines strike me as having an even more slick, engineered, international style to them than I remember from the past. They have for lack of a better word a very “glossy” quality when young. Also, after a couple of years of lower alcohol levels (2012, 2014, 2016, etc.) we seem to be seeing 14-15+% alcohol routinely again.
I would really like to see a book that went inside the actual technological and craft changes over the past couple of decades in Bordeaux, the way William Kelley has been trying to do in Burgundy, rather than just talking about a “less interventionist” approach or “tea bag” extraction, which lets face it is basically a marketing pitch to align with current styles. But winemakers tend to be pretty close mouthed about what they are actually doing.
I have tried to suggest that the Anson book may be the Bordeaux book you are looking for, and you shouldn’t be put off by my feeble summary. Her primary focus is on soil types, on the ways in which “the interplay between grape, soil, climate and man is becoming ever more refined,” but she is also spending a lot of time in the cellars and reports extensively on what’s happening there.
I am happy to take this opportunity to recommend again William Kelley’s excellent article on the ‘naturalistic fallacy,’ in which he argues that “every wine … is unavoidably the product of intention.” So perhaps we could follow his lead and differentiate more and less ‘explicitly interventionist’ approaches to winemaking – and then we can see that the current fashion in Bordeaux is an emphasis on less explicitly interventionist winemaking. I mentioned Chateau Palmer earlier in the thread; certainly, the decision there to introduce no commercial yeasts and only minimal amounts of sulphur could fairly be characterized as less explicitly interventionist.
In this light, there are many ways to invest in wineries without investing in interventional technologies. To take one example: Several contributors to this thread have recommended the recent vintages of Chateau Lilian Ladouys in Saint Estephe. What I learn from the Anson book is that the estate was “seriously run-down” as recently as 1989. Two sets of owners have invested a lot of money in basic infrastructure, in enlargements of the vineyard through the purchase of adjoining properties, in hiring experienced staff to oversee the vineyards and the winemaking, in field grafting and replanting to take advantage of a more sophisticated understanding of the soil types (which is in turn the result of investment), in the installation of a gravity-flow system, and in wine barrels (30-40% new oak).
Anson’s conclusion about Chateau Lilian Ladouys: “It’s a wine that is really starting to bear the results of all the investment: expect bright, juicy character, unfussy berry fruits with touches of cedary oak, and tannins that have been considerably tamed from vintages even as recent as 2008.” I had drunk a bottle of the 2014 and found it tasty, but a bit soft compared to the 2014 Tronquoy-Lalande – based on the feedback here, I am going to try the more recent vintages of Ladouys.
As a value BDX buyer myself, I recommend Vrai Canon Bouche and Chateau des Laurets.
(It is harder to justify huge investments in wine production in the least prestigious appellations, like AOC Bordeaux, where there is effectively a cap on the price that can be charged for the wine.).
Not sure I buy that. It’s only true if things are immutable and if you study Bordeaux and learn that you’re not supposed to pay more or the “lesser” appellations are not as good as the others.
Actually it would be hard not to invest in the less prestigious appellations and stay in business. Improving those wines will increase sales. Improving the other wines won’t matter because people buy them by the brand. One of Parker’s early achievements was demonstrating that the brand didn’t matter as much as the wine. That’s an opinion that’s past now but the truth of it still holds.
I have had several of the named wines. They had high QPR, but very seldom were given high scores from me. I do not mind paying a bit more for better wines, as long as they are reasonably priced. RTPL
You might be right. Here are the relevant parameters:
If you are going to make the investments that would justify a price increase, you have to have some confidence that the resulting quality improvements will allow the market to differentiate your wine from the wines of your 4,999 peers. If, on the other hand, the 4 euro/bottle is effectively a commodity price, then there is a small likelihood of a positive return on investment. (There is an interesting report here on “The Cost of Producing a Bottle of AOC Bordeaux”: The cost of producing a bottle of AOC Bordeaux - Vineyard Intelligence)
I certainly agree about Ch la Dauphine. Their wines of the early 2000s were wonderful and I had a delightful visit there several years ago, but their style now is clearly in the very ripe, high extraction, high alcohol style. Seems to be true of most Fronsac producers from what I see.
Yes, La Dauphine was probably our least liked of the wines we’ve tried. This is my tasting note for the 2015:
My wife, kicking and screaming, did not like this at all. I liked it a lot at first, when the chocolatey-minty richness was balanced by moderate acidity, but the acidity faded pretty quickly, and then what’s left is a somewhat decadent concoction.
For all the value wines being discussed or recommended here, is the consensus that they are intended to be consumed early or do they need extended cellaring? It’s not clear in this discussion if all the investment is resulting in a wider array of choices for early enjoyment or for laying down for 20+ years.
Good question: I doubt there is a consensus, exactly, but I would say that, in general, the wines are more for early consumption or medium-term cellaring, with two clear caveats – it depends on the specific wine, and it depends on the taste of the specific wine-drinker. I haven’t come across anything that is a tannic monster (with the possible exception of the 2016 Moulin St. Georges), though there have been several that will certainly become more integrated and less acidic with a few more years in the cellar. A few specific takes: The 2009 La Garde and the 2010 Puygueraud are at peak now. I had several wines from Saint Estephe (Capbern 2010, Tronquoy-Lalande 2014, Lilian Ladouys 2014) that are tasty now but will certainly improve with another 5 years or so in the cellar. I would guess that you could drink with pleasure any of the wines that have been mentioned by the time they are celebrating their 10th birthdays, and many will be drinkable younger if you decant them a couple of hours before consuming.