Is Cristal now a grower champagne?

[Greg_K]

Like in Burg. There is domaine wine and negoce wine. In Champagne some wines are mixed.

And in Burgundy, too. Many négoce wines from e.g. Jadot, Bouchard have a domaine-fruit base. And many domaines will buy a little fruit to complement holdings they have in a particular site.

How much of this can they do before they can no longer call it Domaine?

[AD_Northup]

Also to your point Charlie, if Bereche is grower still, I don’t see why we wouldn’t view Roederer the same way.

Or we need different terms. Like in Burg. There is domaine wine and negoce wine. In Champagne some wines are mixed.

That’s kind of my point. Bereche is a grower, Prevost is a grower, Vilmart, Savart etc etc. Outside of the NV from Roederer, they are basically a grower. All their vintage wines are from vineyards owned by Roederer.

Even Prevost is buying grapes now though…

[William_Kelley]

Like in Burg. There is domaine wine and negoce wine. In Champagne some wines are mixed.

And in Burgundy, too. Many négoce wines from e.g. Jadot, Bouchard have a domaine-fruit base. And many domaines will buy a little fruit to complement holdings they have in a particular site.

How much of this can they do before they can no longer call it Domaine?

In such cases, they don’t call it domaine any more.

[Greg_K]

And in Burgundy, too. Many négoce wines from e.g. Jadot, Bouchard have a domaine-fruit base. And many domaines will buy a little fruit to complement holdings they have in a particular site.

How much of this can they do before they can no longer call it Domaine?

In such cases, they don’t call it domaine any more.

Ah, ok - I thought you were suggesting it was like Napa “Cabernet”. That’s what I thought, like Fourrier’s Bourgogne, for which he now buys some of the grapes.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

By that logic, Clos des Goisses, Clos de Mesnil, Clos d’Ambonnay, and a whole host of other tete-de-cuvees would be grower champagnes too.

Why aren’t they?

There are grower champagnes we know and love that also make negotiant wines. Are Prevost facsimile and beguines no longer grower champagnes because Prevost Ampersand now exists?

Prevost still labels as an NM on those though. The house is a negociant even if they are sole proprietors on a vineyard.

These examples are why we as champagne drinkers need to start moving past grower=good, negoce=less good. There’s more freedom that can happen as an NM for some producers while others will choose to use the Bio-D or RM or whatever other labels/certifications that they want.

[Andrew_L]

Always found them to be more of a shower than a grower.

[William_Kelley]

I expect that Cristal would probably run from that label rather than towards it. It’s a bit like some people calling Fourrier “natural wine” - he has thoughts on that subject, lol.

I don’t think they would, and I don’t think the analogy really holds!

Interesting! I guess it depends on the perspective - I would think Cristal’s image as a luxury good* would be at odds with branding themselves as a “grower” champagne. It’s discordant to me in the same way that I think some producers of Burgundy who don’t see themselves as avant garde would prefer not to see themselves as “natural wine” producers - that’s where I was making the analogy, which I agree is imperfect.


*I like Cristal a lot, so this isn’t a criticism.

I see the point you are trying to make, but I think that Lecaillon has both sincerely and also very shrewdly decided to emphasize the quality of the wine and the work behind it above all else, rather than branding. What Roederer is doing in the vineyards is really impressive. In fact, the 2012 Cristal is the first vintage produced from organically farmed grapes (which might have been what the Wine Enthusiast note was getting at, in a roundabout sort of way).

[William_Kelley]

By that logic, Clos des Goisses, Clos de Mesnil, Clos d’Ambonnay, and a whole host of other tete-de-cuvees would be grower champagnes too.

Why aren’t they?

There are grower champagnes we know and love that also make negotiant wines. Are Prevost facsimile and beguines no longer grower champagnes because Prevost Ampersand now exists?

Prevost still labels as an NM on those though. The house is a negociant even if they are sole proprietors on a vineyard.

These examples are why we as champagne drinkers need to start moving past grower=good, negoce=less good. There’s more freedom that can happen as an NM for some producers while others will choose to use the Bio-D or RM or whatever other labels/certifications that they want.

I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.

[Greg_K]

I don’t think they would, and I don’t think the analogy really holds!

Interesting! I guess it depends on the perspective - I would think Cristal’s image as a luxury good* would be at odds with branding themselves as a “grower” champagne. It’s discordant to me in the same way that I think some producers of Burgundy who don’t see themselves as avant garde would prefer not to see themselves as “natural wine” producers - that’s where I was making the analogy, which I agree is imperfect.


*I like Cristal a lot, so this isn’t a criticism.

I see the point you are trying to make, but I think that Lecaillon has both sincerely and also very shrewdly decided to emphasize the quality of the wine and the work behind it above all else, rather than branding. What Roederer is doing in the vineyards is really impressive. In fact, the 2012 Cristal is the first vintage produced from organically farmed grapes (which might have been what the Wine Enthusiast note was getting at, in a roundabout sort of way).

I will mention to my friends that they can’t refer to it as “stripper juice” anymore then I understand what you’re saying; to me the distinction of “grower” and “house” is a lot about branding, and I suppose Cristal hasn’t been trying to sell me enough wine by advertising their vineyard work!

[Marshall_Manning]

I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.

This makes the most sense (as expected from William). I believe the legal definition of grower (RM) and negociant (NM) is what should determine how we refer to them, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t have quality NMs and mediocre RMs.

[Kelly_Walker]

Why aren’t they?

There are grower champagnes we know and love that also make negotiant wines. Are Prevost facsimile and beguines no longer grower champagnes because Prevost Ampersand now exists?

Prevost still labels as an NM on those though. The house is a negociant even if they are sole proprietors on a vineyard.

These examples are why we as champagne drinkers need to start moving past grower=good, negoce=less good. There’s more freedom that can happen as an NM for some producers while others will choose to use the Bio-D or RM or whatever other labels/certifications that they want.

I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.

I drank the 2012 last night. Maybe the best Cristal ever made. Jaw dropping good!!

[Blake_Brown]

My brother sent me a note by wine enthusiast that stated the 2012 Cristal was made entirely from vineyards owned by the house. First time the house has done it

He posed the question - is Cristal now a grower champagne?

Not really, but this stellar bubbly does grow on one.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.

completely agree. It’s why in the past couple of years I’ve done my best to look past what worked in the lexicon a decade ago and focus on what’s actually in the glass

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.

This makes the most sense (as expected from William). I believe the legal definition of grower (RM) and negociant (NM) is what should determine how we refer to them, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t have quality NMs and mediocre RMs.

while it doesn’t necessarily apply to this thread or roederer, I’ve made it a point to distinguish someone who does a more handcrafted approach as a small house rather than just focusing on whether they are an NM or RM

[M_Meer]

It’s a no for me for reasons made above, but I think it’s impressive they moved to all domaine fruit for such a large operation. Then again, I’m sure they have the capital and leverage to do all that, so perhaps a logical endpoint for them.

[Brad_Baker]

I believe Cristal has been made solely from estate owned fruit since its beginnings in the 19th century. The 2012 Cristal Blanc was the first that was from 100% biodynamically farmed vineyards. The Cristal Rose has been 100% biodynamic since the 2007 vintage.

[alan_weinberg]

I have been impressed by recent and not so recent Cris. Tried to start a thread about it. Really moving up.

[Michael_S_Monie]

Prevost still labels as an NM on those though. The house is a negociant even if they are sole proprietors on a vineyard.

These examples are why we as champagne drinkers need to start moving past grower=good, negoce=less good. There’s more freedom that can happen as an NM for some producers while others will choose to use the Bio-D or RM or whatever other labels/certifications that they want.

I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.

I drank the 2012 last night. Maybe the best Cristal ever made. Jaw dropping good!!

Had it 2 weeks ago and agree.

[Travis_allen1]

The brute nature stark is also a single biodynamic vineyard & a great value. Cristal is often compared to other tête de cuvées with massive production but they are small in comparison. By far my fav of the famous houses. To the original question, a couple people on this thread could probably ask them directly if they consider themselves grower champagne.

[Brad_Baker]

Grower or Negociant really doesn’t matter. I agree with William when he says ‘I think we should just be looking at the quality of the work, from the vineyard to the glass.’

Without even getting into the winemaking, would you rather drink a wine made from 100% estate vineyards that are full of vines with little root depth, picked too early, over-cropped, and sprayed with every chemical imaginable? Or, would you rather drink a wine made from well-farmed and cared for vines picked at the optimum time that happen to be purchased (and even managed/cared for) by the negociant winemaking party?