Is It Better for Wines To Focus on Strength or Complexity?

[Howard_Cooper]

@Robert Alfert

I’m all in favor of allowing the wine be what it was intended to be.

What were Bordeauxs to used to like but that now have gone over to the dark side “intended to be”?

Wineries should make wines however they want; I should buy wines in the styles I like.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Joe G a l e w s k i

Most of the wines that I thought were really great were both powerful and complex. 1990 Château Montrose, 1996 Harlan Estate, 1985 Château Cheval Blanc, 1982 Pichon Lalande. Certainly, you can have both strength and complexity, or just strength, or just complexity, or neither. People on cellartracker seem to regard strength higher than complexity, at least in terms of points given.

For me:

I have had wonderful wines that combine power and complexity - to name just a few, 1982 Leoville las Cases, 1982 Pichon Lalande, 1982 Ducru, 1970 Latour, 1991 Ridge Montebello.

I have had wonderful wines that are much more elegant (not powerful) that have wonderful complexity - hundreds of Burgundies from producers like Truchot, Fourrier, Dublere, etc., etc., 2014 Chateau Climens, a whole bunch of German Kabinetts and Spatlesen, etc.

I have never had a wine I really liked that had power without complexity.

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Howard Cooper

@Robert Alfert

I’m all in favor of allowing the wine be what it was intended to be.

What were Bordeauxs to used to like but that now have gone over to the dark side “intended to be”?

Wineries should make wines however they want; I should buy wines in the styles I like.

My point is, there is too much emphasis on how to manipulate the end product. Sure I get that where to plant, what to plant, etc., are all decisions made by someone, but sheez at a certain point, once those decision are made, so much after is about how to concoct an end product. Perhaps wine from Paso Robles was always meant to be big and ripe given the climate. Perhaps Bordeaux, not so much, really depends on the year. As Mies van der Rohe quipped, “less is more”. At least for me.

[Subu_Ramachandran]

@Ian Sutton

The article refers to power, and specifically the concentration of higher ripeness (rather than structure, which I thought it would given the article title), and this very much brings us back to that recent debate of (to simplify it) Parker vs. the AFWE. Whilst I may be much towards the latter in my preferences, I can see why some at the other end of the spectrum might see it as a poorly disguised swipe at the wines they like.

Certainly plenty of concentrated and very ripe wines that are complex, and are so on release. For the more restrained styles their complexity can take time - take Hunter semillon for instance, often dull as dishwater on release, but gains great complexity and a better balance with age.

There is also a great danger of terms like finesse, class, elegance carrying a bit of social innuendo, that people who don’t appreciate them are uncouth and brutish. All nonsense of course.

I hope we see wines made across a broad range of styles, as although I may not generally care for the super-ripe wines, many do, and the variety of styles are a great use when trying to pick a wine to match the mood and situation.

Well said Ian, especially the point final point. There’s a place for different styles, variety is helpful to match different foods, weather and mood

[Howard_Cooper]

@Robert Alfert

@Howard Cooper

@Robert Alfert

I’m all in favor of allowing the wine be what it was intended to be.

What were Bordeauxs to used to like but that now have gone over to the dark side “intended to be”?

Wineries should make wines however they want; I should buy wines in the styles I like.

My point is, there is too much emphasis on how to manipulate the end product. Sure I get that where to plant, what to plant, etc., are all decisions made by someone, but sheez at a certain point, once those decision are made, so much after is about how to concoct an end product. Perhaps wine from Paso Robles was always meant to be big and ripe given the climate. Perhaps Bordeaux, not so much, really depends on the year. As Mies van der Rohe quipped, “less is more”. At least for me.

I may be getting to your point Robert, but please let me know. I see in this thread and in the original article sort of a mixing between powerful wines and very ripe or overly ripe wines. Thinking about this, I see them as two separate things. I have had a lot of powerful wines over the years that are not made from “very ripe grapes.” Examples are Chateau Latour, a lot of Barolos, Jadot, Chateau Montelena. In general, my sense is that these are the types of wines people are talking about when discussing wines that are powerful and complex. I think this also goes to the vineyard should produce what it is intended to produce. But, when you are picking overripe grapes, can you ever get a wine that is complex?

[Anton_D]

Added question: which type of wine do you think it is ‘easier’ to make?

[Merrill_Lindquist]

@Howard Cooper

@Merrill Lindquist

Sorry - Howard. Would love to meet you some day and see if we find common ground. Your turf or mine.

Would be interesting

It will likely be on your turf. I will email you when I have plans to be in your area - probably the Spring. I have met very, very few wine lovers (in person) whose company I did not care for. But in the meantime, if you find yourself with plans to be in Napa Valley, let me know, and you and yours and I can share a glass or two.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Anton D

Added question: which type of wine do you think it is ‘easier’ to make?

Not a winemaker, but I would think big wines from overripe grapes would be easier to make in most wine regions of the world. There are so many of them and they seem like they can be made in a lot of places.

[Viet_Ly]

@Peter Simpson

Since when has Santa Lucia Highlands been known for its big wines? Paso…for sure, RRV…maybe, SLH…no way!!!

I’m surprised the OP didn’t point this out.

I would consider Santa Lucia Highlands as an area where I generally find Pinot Noir to be richer and bigger, but this may be due to bias on my producer selections (e.g. Lucia, Siduri). Not bad or good, just different style of wines for different moods/events/company/etc. What wines do you typically drink from this area?

[Corey_N]

Very late to the discussion, but I value complexity more than strength. I like to drink wine with dinner and rarely do I want something “big” with dinner (occasionally with beef) because it can overwhelm the food.

[Peter_Simpson]

@Viet Ly

@Peter Simpson

Since when has Santa Lucia Highlands been known for its big wines? Paso…for sure, RRV…maybe, SLH…no way!!!

I’m surprised the OP didn’t point this out.

I would consider Santa Lucia Highlands as an area where I generally find Pinot Noir to be richer and bigger, but this may be due to bias on my producer selections (e.g. Lucia, Siduri). Not bad or good, just different style of wines for different moods/events/company/etc. What wines do you typically drink from this area?

Viet, my all time favorites were the 2004 to 2007 Roar Garys’ Pinot Noir, all made by Adam Lee. I don’t remember those wines as being big, but I just looked at a bottle of the 2004, and it checks in at 14.9% alcohol. Of course another favorite is the Arcadian Sleepy Hollow Pinot, particularly the 2001, and that wine certainly isn’t “big”.

More recently we drink the same producers as you, Lucia, Siduri, and Pisoni. In fact I started a thread a month or so ago inquiring about other SLH vineyards but didn’t get a lot of response. Santa Lucia Highlands Vineyards? - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

I agree with you that maybe the SLH wines have higher alcohols, but have enough stuffing to carry it off, and to me at least, they do not come across as hot.

[Anton_D]

@Howard Cooper

@Anton D

Added question: which type of wine do you think it is ‘easier’ to make?

Not a winemaker, but I would think big wines from overripe grapes would be easier to make in most wine regions of the world. There are so many of them and they seem like they can be made in a lot of places.

That would be my guess, too.

_

Someone mentioned pinot noir. Bigness or ‘strength’ is, I think, close to the bottom of my list a requirements for a pinot noir.

[Mark_C]

Strength giving way, somewhat, to complexity in the fullness of time is the best.

[Viet_Ly]

@Peter Simpson

Viet, my all time favorites were the 2004 to 2007 Roar Garys’ Pinot Noir, all made by Adam Lee. I don’t remember those wines as being big, but I just looked at a bottle of the 2004, and it checks in at 14.9% alcohol. Of course another favorite is the Arcadian Sleepy Hollow Pinot, particularly the 2001, and that wine certainly isn’t “big”.

More recently we drink the same producers as you, Lucia, Siduri, and Pisoni. In fact I started a thread a month or so ago inquiring about other SLH vineyards but didn’t get a lot of response. Santa Lucia Highlands Vineyards? - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

I agree with you that maybe the SLH wines have higher alcohols, but have enough stuffing to carry it off, and to me at least, they do not come across as hot.

I agree Lucia and Siduri SLH doesn’t taste “hot” to me either, and I enjoy them. Haven’t had Roar but I’ve seen it at Wine Lab in Costa Mesa. I’ve also seen posts here regarding Arcadian Sleepy Hollow. I need to try both of those wines next chance I get. More recently I’ve been drinking Sonoma Coast pinot noir (e.g. Boheme, Copain, Littorai, Banshee, Occidental Kistler) and I think they’re in a leaner style in comparison to my memories of SLH. The right wine for the wine occasion is what I strive for, not AWFE or bigger is better.

Cheers