I don’t have the depth of experience that some members of the board have but there certainly seems to be a deeper roster of producers that I like in almost every region today than in say the 1980s. I agree completely that in many regions you need to be careful about the style of certain producers, particularly in Bordeaux. However, the number of quality producers, even in Bordeaux seems far greater today than in the 1980s once you get beyond the 1855 classification (I speak more for the left bank than the right bank as I drink fewer right bank wines). Sure, some have moved to the dark side but there are so many good Cru Bourgeois and I get the sense from those who have been drinking Bordeaux for a long time that this wasn’t the case 30-40 years ago.
Burgundy is probably the poster child for improvement - simply put there is a much wider breadth today of high quality domaines and it seems like a lot of the fads in red Burgundy have fallen away (200% new oak, some of the Guy Accad techniques). Look at Champagne with all of the fantastic grower champagnes being made today.
I’ll let the older/ more experienced members of the forum be more definitive, but for me, I’m broadly very happy with the quality of wines I’m buying and drinking today.
I love a classic balance of sweetness, acid and extract that has long been traditional in German Kabinetts and Spatlesen. These types of wines have been pretty unique in the world of wine. The only thing even close has been Loire Chenin Blanc, but while I like Loire Chenin Blanc a lot, they do not have the sense of weightlessness one gets in a traditionally made German wine. More and more over the last 20 years or so, people in Germany (both winemakers and consumers) and fallen for the idea that they need to be like everyone else in the world and make bone dry wines. It has become a religion in the sense that many people there (and now here) cannot even appreciate the uniqueness of the traditionally made German wines anymore - if it has any sweetness at all, it is not good. There are fewer and fewer traditionally made German wines made over time as more and more producers convert to this religion. Even in the US, trocken German wines are in and hip (something that you know I have never been). Something truly unique in the world of wine is being lost in the fervor to make the same kinds of wines everyone else makes. To make these wines palatable, German producers are harvesting later, de-acidifying, in other words, doing what I think of as neutering the wines. In a traditionally made German wine, the interplay of higher acidity and a little residual sugar makes a wonderful sweet and sour combination. In the new trocken era, softer vintages are heralded.
I can get dry white wines in Burgundy, in Alsace (even from Riesling), all over the world (except in California Chardonnay where so many of them are sweet, but that is a rant for another day). Does the world really need yet another dry wine?
This really is not a huge deal for my personal wine consumption. I have a lot of German wines and can drink what I like for many, many years. Also, many of my favorite producers still make the wines I like (because the producers love them) and the wines are actually cheaper than the GG wines so it is still great for me. But something precious is being lost. Robert, I am glad you asked (although I am sure I will get many responses that I am nuts by the ultrareligous). But, if you were a decade older, and had grown up with vintages like 1971, 1975, 1983, 1985 and 1990, you would know exactly what I am worried about.
For me, and I would not be surprised for Mark also (although I would not speak for him), the fact that a winery where in the past I have loved the wines has changed is much more significant than the fact that Brian Loring is making big wines. To me, let Brian Loring make wines for people who like that style but don’t take from me what I have liked. Fortunately, I have Burgundy. Bordeaux is Mark’s real love.
I’m not following you. Most producers always made Trockens, we just didn’t see them. When I visited Schloss Saarstein in 1997, Christian Ebert told me that 90% of their production was dry wine – in the friggin’ Saar, where acidities are usually conspicuous even in the sweet wines. Sweet wines were basically an export product.
Are you talking about the Grosse Gewachs? It’s not my preferred style, in most cases, but I respect the wines.
I can’t think of any great producer of sweet wines that has abandoned them in favor of Trockens.
I would add that, in terms of vintages, '99 was the real dividing point. If you look at climate data, from '99 on the weather has been substantially warmer. I suspect that’s one reason for the increased emphasis on dry wines – you could make them without their being so acidic that they strip the enamel off your teeth. It’s also why there’s so much cascading down the Pradikats among the sweet wines, with Auslese-level fruit being bottled as Spatlese, and so on.
My view as well, though my experience on German wine is very low compared to you two. I prefer trocken and very dry Kabinett. Seems to me that more Kabs these days taste like Spats.
Actually, there’s vigneron, which is usually translated as “wine grower,” but it typically refers to a person who makes wine, because in the European tradition, growing and making the wine were not distinct.
I think you may be confusing this with the fact that the French don’t have a word for entrepreneur.
As someone that drinks Bordeaux every week, and have since I started this passion in the 1990s, I think it is the exact opposite. If you like a more international style of Bordeaux, I think you are correct. If you prefer a more classic style, its the exact opposite, in my opinion. More and more producers have flipped to the dark side to make wines with more appeal to critics, which in turn, creates more appeal to producers. I say this as I drink right now one of the most historically classic stalwarts, Chateau Lanessan - only, I’m drinking the Bouard 2016 version since the wine turned dark. It’s glossy. I’d take 2014 any day of the week over this more internationalized style. Lanessan is now off my radar, and I’ve been buying this wine for 25+ years as a mainstay of my regular drinking. You can say the same thing about La Louviere, Cambon La Pelouse, Meyney, Siran, Poujeaux and a whole host of other Crus. I think Corbin may be the only affordable St Em that has remained classic, oh, and Corbin Michotte. Frankly, I no longer have a stable of go-to Crus for regular consumption. I’m backfilling or paying twice as much for more classically-styled Classified Growths for future drinking.
I have no reference to pre-2010 wine buying, but the number of just absolutely killer producers this point that are making fantastic wine consistently is through the roof now. its a problem because my wish list is always growing and my wine fridge is not getting any bigger (yet). I think most of it has to do with far better understanding of how important a vineyard is. there are definitely select regions where the wines are not the same (looking at you. Bordeaux and Napa) but I really think there’s a peak to that which we are past or close to. bordeaux is still very popular here but with younger wine drinkers I just don’t see the excitement for it. the ones who would have been buying bordeaux in the 80s have so many choices now, and I think shy away from the big business aspect of Bordeaux and Napa. maybe im a little spoiled by my local wine shops that carry good small producer wines, but that’s what I see from my little spot in SC at least.
My thinking is that is probably more to do with climate change than wine-making preference. I believe that sweet wines have gone out of style in Germany more than in the US. I get about an equal amount of Auslese as GG.
Agreed. But I don’t always mind change either. In many cases it was for the better, at least once you get out of Bordeaux and Burgundy, and I suspect there as well. I wasn’t drinking those in the 1980s but I’ve had plenty of bretty, skunky Bordeaux from some of the smaller houses, whereas now even those guys have cleaned up.
Re: your comment about the German wines - I couldn’t agree more.
I’ll defer to John on the history but maybe the issue is that the fashion in the US and perhaps elsewhere turned towards drier German wines. The Germans always seemed to like off-dry Rieslings, at least since WW2.
I don’t think anyone knows what was going on much earlier, because if a wine has residual sugar, my understanding is that you probably want to filter it unless it is either fairly alcoholic and/or has a super low in pH. Maybe the pH was the key in Germany. Anyway, after they figured out that sterile filtration would allow them to make the wines with residual sugar while still being protected against post-bottling spoilage, they employed it. That may have been how so much Schwarze Katz, Blue Nun, and Liebfrauenmilch showed up. I think that may have been what ruined the reputation of the off-dry wines.
And it seems to have ruined the reputation both in Germany and in the US. David Schildknecht said Germans succumbed to “trocken-fanaticism”, a malady he termed “bipolar riesling disorder”. The end point of that was the establishment of GGs.
For me, the Riesling we most often consume is a Spatlese that is not fermented completely dry. Seems like everyone wants to be like Burgundy these days.
I have been told that some producers of traditional wines are having to cut back on their production of these types of wine. I was told under confidence so I cannot name names.
Like Howard said, some regions are a minefield. The problem with some regions that got a lot of critic attention is the hyped names with the biggest scores (and prices) are what outsiders judge them by. There are forgotten old schoolers. There are newbies looking to the past. There are folks scaling back. People who know a region know how to navigate the minefield. If I judged Mencia by the first Bierzo tasting we did, well they all sucked. Total amateur hour where the producers seemed to be trying different things to resolve or improve, and failing. Late picking, over-oaking, etc., with most having a burnt black pepper character in them. There are plenty of late picked, over-oaked Barolo, too. At the same time, those two regions are making better wines than ever.
I wish there were more more kabinetts that taste like kabinetts. For your point of reference, I think of trocken wines like you do of internationally styled Bordeaux.
I guess my palate is aligned to Howard re Bordeaux and German Trocken wines…have not enjoyed the Trocken wines…Seems they are trying to emulate Burgundy whites…and not succeeding…just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.Even locally, in the Finger lakes, some of the reliable Riesling producers are dabbling with Trocken, have yet to taste one that I liked and that includes the wines from Hermann Weimer, my favorite FL winery…As to Bordeaux, I stopped buying after the 1990 vintage…Back in the day, I found Burgundy to be a minefield where ya had to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince…Nowadays, the quality seems much better…Regrettably the pricing puts a lot of wines I used to enjoy beyond the meager reach of my wallet…However, there are enough affordable Burgs, both red and white, that can easily be found that provide enjoyment…The overall quality of inexpensive Italian whites has never been better, IMHO,far better than the thin and acidic wines that I remember from my single days in NYC. Ditto re chiantis. For the record, I am an unabashed fan of Brian Loring…I also love PN’s from Oregon…Not sure where that puts me in the scheme of things…Enjoy zins more than ever tho I feel Bedrock and Carlisle wines need a few years in the cellar to calm down…
It’s hard to respond to that without knowing details, but even if it’s true, I don’t think it’s because of some trend among hipster winemakers.
The market for German wines in the US is quite soft now, not at all what it was in the 2000s after the enthusiasm for the 2001s. So I can imagine importers may not be taking as much sweet wines to the US.
But the fact is that, even in the Mosel-Saar-Ruwer, for decades, a large portion of the production was dry or nearly dry wines. In 2003, I visited Karthauserhof and Herr Tyrell said, “I guess you’re not interested in our Trockens or Halb-Trockens.” He lit up when I said I was. Like most German wineries, there were a couple dozen current offerings, and a good proportion were dry or nearly so – far drier than your average Ruwer Kabinett. He just assumed that an American wouldn’t be interested.
So I don’t think there’s some new fad among winemakers there. The domestic German market for quality riesling (versus Liebfraumilch) has leaned heavily toward dry wines for a long time. The GGs were an expression of that.
The answer to stabilizing wines with residual sugar was sulfur! As it was in places like the Loire, too.
What was the context for Schildknecht’s comment? Is he talking about German consumers or producers? I think there is frustration among winemakers who make sweet wines that there isn’t more demand for them, domestically or abroad. But that’s different from saying winemakers are guilty of “Trocken-fanaticism” (and I have to think he capitalized Trocken).
Place: positive. Yes, we continue to lose some irreplaceable vineyards, others get grafted over- both for financial reasons. However we are further along in our collective knowledge about what is successful and where.
Vintage: neutral. Climate change seems to be the biggest factor here. Some places are currently “winning”, others “losing”. I could see why some would say we’re worse off now, depending on the style and region that’s in your wheelhouse.
Winemaking: positive. We understand the science of winemaking more now than ever. Some books come to mind (Kermit Lynch, Jon Bonne) on how practices have been corrected from the previous over-steering. Sure, there’s still a large component of making wine to cater to current tastes- and maybe that’s not your style, but at least now we know the what’s/why’s to winemaking whereas before it certainly was more up to blind luck.
The word for winemaker in French is either vigneron or viticulteur. Oenologue means the same thing it does in English, which is a consultant. Claire Fabre is the vigneronne for Vieux Donjon (I think). Phillipe Cambie is their oenologue. Laurent Charvin is the vigneron for Charvin. He doesn’t employ an oenologue.
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