JF Mugnier vs Chevillon Styles - newbie question

[Joe_Mendez]

@Alan Rath

For me, Les Cailles is the sweet spot of their portfolio.

+1.

The Cailles is easier, more feminine and does not need as much age as Vaucrains. Good as they are, Vaucrains has greater potential,

Does Chevillon and Mugnier use whole clusters on their NSG wines? New oak %?

[Gerhard_P]

Does Chevillon and Mugnier use whole clusters on their NSG wines? New oak %?

AFAIC both do not use whole clusters but practice (almost) 100% destemming … (at least the sons Chevillon).
The major difference might be the much longer cuvaison at Chevillon (3-5 weeks) vers. 2-3 weeks at Mugnier.
Use of new oak is quite limited, maybe less so at Mugnier …

Curiously the results are quite different …

[Kent_Comley]

To me Mugnier produces feminine, red fruited, subtle wines whereas Chevillon produces wines with rustic grunt. They are poles apart stylistically. Both very good producers.

[David_Bu3ker]

To me Mugnier produces feminine, red fruited, subtle wines whereas Chevillon produces wines with rustic grunt. They are poles apart stylistically. Both very good producers.

100% agreement, though Chevillon has gotten slightly more stylish in recent vintages…slightly.

[William_Kelley]

Does Chevillon and Mugnier use whole clusters on their NSG wines? New oak %?

AFAIC both do not use whole clusters but practice (almost) 100% destemming … (at least the sons Chevillon).
The major difference might be the much longer cuvaison at Chevillon (3-5 weeks) vers. 2-3 weeks at Mugnier.
Use of new oak is quite limited, maybe less so at Mugnier …

Curiously the results are quite different …

I think Chevillon also ferment quite a bit hotter, up to 35 centigrade. And I do think they use some stems. But such statements are often misleading, since what goes on in practice in a winery is typically much more adaptive than what gets told to journalists and writers and written down in books—and that’s without allowing for what gets lost in translation.

(I remember Cécile Tremblay complaining that she had told a visiting journalist that her press wine in 2015 was over 15% potential alcohol - the reason being that unfermented sugar is liberated when the wine is pressed, so the press wine is richer in sugar and consequently higher in alcohol. That press wine amounted to only a tiny fraction of her finished blends. The journalist dutifully wrote down that all her 2015s were over 15% alcohol!)

[Gerhard_P]

Does Chevillon and Mugnier use whole clusters on their NSG wines? New oak %?

AFAIC both do not use whole clusters but practice (almost) 100% destemming … (at least the sons Chevillon).
The major difference might be the much longer cuvaison at Chevillon (3-5 weeks) vers. 2-3 weeks at Mugnier.
Use of new oak is quite limited, maybe less so at Mugnier …

Curiously the results are quite different …

I think Chevillon also ferment quite a bit hotter, up to 35 centigrade. And I do think they use some stems. But such statements are often misleading, since what goes on in practice in a winery is typically much more adaptive than what gets told to journalists and writers and written down in books—and that’s without allowing for what gets lost in translation.

(I remember Cécile Tremblay complaining that she had told a visiting journalist that her press wine in 2015 was over 15% potential alcohol - the reason being that unfermented sugar is liberated when the wine is pressed, so the press wine is richer in sugar and consequently higher in alcohol. That press wine amounted to only a tiny fraction of her finished blends. The journalist dutifully wrote down that all her 2015s were over 15% alcohol!)

All true - and fine winemakers also adapt to the vintage and the site … so it isn´t always the same …

Moreover Mugnier´s Clos de la Marechale is the Southernmost NSG vineyard, the soil is definitely lighter, as also shown by the neighbour Clos L´Arlot
and the Clos des Grandes Vignes on the other side of the street … while vineyards in the center - Les Saint-Georges, Vaucrains, Cailles, Poirets - usually show more structure … Vaucrains for me is the most sauvage of all NSGs, while LSG is more solid and hard, has the greatest potential but needs the longest time …
The Northern sites get more and more fruity and fragrant, but it´s still a contrast to a typical Vosne-R. … only between Boudots and Malconsorts I see a certain resemblance … but no NSG will ever have the perfume of a Chaumes, Clos des Reas, Les Suchots or Brulees …

(not to school you William, it´s meant for all who don´t know exactly …)

[Jayson_Cohen]

@Alan Rath

For me, Les Cailles is the sweet spot of their portfolio.

+1.

The Cailles is easier, more feminine and does not need as much age as Vaucrains. Good as they are, Vaucrains has greater potential,

Debatable. It depends on what you mean by potential or your preferences. I consistently prefer Cailles from Chevillon, even at maturity of both, and have for about the last 15 years—to the extent that I stopped buying or backfilling Vaucrains in favor of Cailles. And as you suggest, it starts drinking sooner.

Chevillon LSG when it’s on is at another level.

[David_Bu3ker]

I’m new to burgundies and recently tasted a JF Mugnier Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Clos de la Marechale 2014 and I enjoyed it a lot, upon further research it appears Chevillon (Les Vaucrains) is also a top producer in St. Georges, are their styles similar, or will the tasting experience be a lot different than the Mugnier Marechale? I’m trying to decide how to allocate my purchases as these are readily available (even older vintages) and are not crazy expensive
I’ve also read that Dujac produced a Nuits St. Georges wine (1er Cru Aux Cras) in 2016, never had any Dujac but would this be at the same level after some years?

Joe - I would also strongly recommend Levi Dalton’s podcast, I’ll Drink to That. There’s a recent episode with Jasper Morris, who has a wealth of knowledge on all things Burgundy, and if you dig through the archives, there is an episode with J.F. Mugnier, which I think will provide a lot of insights for you.

[Peter_Chiu]

****Burgundy does not respond well to being put in the straitjacket. There are no set rules to making burgundy; there are no set rules to appreciating burgundy. ****

[Jay_Miller]

Joe,

There are a lot more producers in the Nuits, it’s a fairly large area. You should do some more exploring.

Gouges is another top tier producer you should investigate.

There are many, many others.

Thank you, I’ll have to explore other producers like Gouges.

Just remember that prior to the style change (don’t recall when that happened, 2010ish?) Gouges would take forever to come around except in ripe, lighter vintages (e.g., 1985 and 1997).

[Craig_G]

+1.

The Cailles is easier, more feminine and does not need as much age as Vaucrains. Good as they are, Vaucrains has greater potential,

Debatable. It depends on what you mean by potential or your preferences. I consistently prefer Cailles from Chevillon, even at maturity of both, and have for about the last 15 years—to the extent that I stopped buying or backfilling Vaucrains in favor of Cailles. And as you suggest, it starts drinking sooner.

I agree with this. For me, Cailles is the one to drink while you’re waiting for the Vaucrains to mature, and also after it does

I had a 2002 Vaucrains last year and while it had softened I found it disturbingly overripe.

[Mark_Golodetz]

On a different note I have both Denis and Maurice Chevillon Chaignots from the 1980s. Anybody know the relationship with Robert?

[William_Kelley]

The Cailles is easier, more feminine and does not need as much age as Vaucrains. Good as they are, Vaucrains has greater potential,

Debatable. It depends on what you mean by potential or your preferences. I consistently prefer Cailles from Chevillon, even at maturity of both, and have for about the last 15 years—to the extent that I stopped buying or backfilling Vaucrains in favor of Cailles. And as you suggest, it starts drinking sooner.

I agree with this. For me, Cailles is the one to drink while you’re waiting for the Vaucrains to mature, and also after it does

I had a 2002 Vaucrains last year and while it had softened I found it disturbingly overripe.

Since in top vintages we are talking about maybe the difference between a 6o-year wine and a 75-year wine, the longevity point seems a little moot for most people’s purposes. While I admit I have a special fondness for Cailles, I buy Vaucrains too (most recently reserving some mags of the 2017, my daughter’s birth year). It’s a matter of context - and vintage. There are times when the structure and muscularity of Vaucrains hit the spot, and others where the charm and suppleness combined with amplitude of Cailles has the edge. For what it’s worth, Bertrand thinks of Chaignots and Cailles as a pair: the Cailles being the larger-scaled and more powerful of the two, but both sharing a certain elegance and charm.

Incidentally, the Chevillon 2016s are simply incredible if you can find any bottles. Given the unusual levels of concentration they will require patience but tasting them today the quality is impossible to miss.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

On a different note I have both Denis and Maurice Chevillon Chaignots from the 1980s. Anybody know the relationship with Robert?

Denis is Robert’s older son. He bottled wines under his own name in the '80s-90s…In 1990 or 1992…I visited and asked who “Denis” was…and a guy in shorts sitting against the wall said “c’est moi”…Denis and Bertrand run the Chevillon estate and have, since 2001. It’s all under the family domaine at this point.

I believe Maurice is Robert’s cousin…and is the son of Robert’s late uncle, Georges. Georges used to bottle his own wines, too…and I once bought a bunch of '83 LSG thinking it was Robert…before i knew of the importance of name precision in Burgundy.

FWIW, I think the top 3 at Robert…LSG, Cailles and Vaucrains all have their relative merits. I don’t look at any of them as always being superior to the others. When I was visiting and buying in the '90s and later…I never bought Cailles, as I thought it had a Rhone-like, black peppery aspect that I didn’t really like. I later started to really like it and buy it…I learned my lesson. It is different, for sure. But, very exotic, too…

[Mark_Golodetz]

Thanks Stuart
Any thoughts on the quality of the wines?

[James_Billy]

It’s not ‘Robert Chevillon’ anymore. It’s ‘Denis & Bertrand Chevillon.’

[Joe_Mendez]

I purchased a bottle of the Chevillon Vaucrains 2012 and Cailles 2015 to taste ( very young), if I like them I will acquire a few more bottles to cellar.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Thanks Stuart
Any thoughts on the quality of the wines?

Denis’ wine, I’d bet was made by Robert.

Maurice’s is different. That’s all I know, Mark.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

It’s not ‘Robert Chevillon’ anymore. It’s ‘Denis & Bertrand Chevillon.’

Yes. In 2001, before a visit to the domaine, we bumped into Robert Chevillon and his wife having lunch at a place in Nuits (La Tour).

When I asked Bertrand if he felt like he was going to miss his father’s guidance and reputation (usually a non-controversial question), he said “no, everyone gets his turn here”… Didn’t seem like loads of reverence or fear. Bertrand is a good guy…and very confident.

[James_Billy]

It’s not ‘Robert Chevillon’ anymore. It’s ‘Denis & Bertrand Chevillon.’

Yes. In 2001, before a visit to the domaine, we bumped into Robert Chevillon and his wife having lunch at a place in Nuits (La Tour).

When I asked Bertrand if he felt like he was going to miss his father’s guidance and reputation (usually a non-controversial question), he said “no, everyone gets his turn here”… Didn’t seem like loads of reverence or fear. Bertrand is a good guy…and very confident.

Agree!