Bordeaux is formulaic and a bit of a snooze. Coupled with the pricing and discovering so many more interesting grape varieties and regions, I don’t see myself ever buying Bdx in volume again.
Jim,
On the contrary, Bordeaux is multi-faceted and endlessly interesting.
If seen only in terms of the great growths (5% of production…), “Bordeaux” has become, to a certain extent, a wine for rich people. Yes.
But there is so much more out there…
And with 6,000 estates, things are constantly changing and shifting.
Best regards,
Alex R.
Agreed about hoping the trade develops that market. Young classified trophy wines with nose-bleed pricing are a non-starter. High quality everyday Bordeaux, especially $15 - $40, that can also age for a decade or two. That’s worthwhile!
Over New Years, the party host opened a 1989 Poujeaux and 1996 Lagrange. Both were on the right track and enjoyable (heavy oak signatures not withstanding). Hopefully purer examples (without escalating ripeness, sweetness and wood) will find their way through the gauntlet.
My last couple of times to Paris, restauranteurs with an eye for value/quality have turned me on to tasty quaffable fairly young and/or off vintage “house” Bordeaux…unobtainable in the US and if so, at 2 - 3x the price. It still seems like the US mantra is “no points = no sale”.
RT
Yes, it’s an issue of availability.
In the region of production, you can find very good wines in the 8-15 euro range, and much less for whites.
If these wines are not easily available in American stores, I can understand some of the above comments.
So, I couldn’t agree more with jcoley and Richard - there is much work to be done in bringing those wines to the States.
Best regards,
Alex R.
I agree with Alex, the Bordelais have proven how pragmatic they can be when necessary, so prices will drop if need be (perhaps more through back channel deals like grey market-sourced imports).
I worry far more about the long term impacts of stylistic changes, the influence of certain enologists and the effects of money changing the culture, etc.
Faryan is correct about pricing in my shopping experience, Nick, but the deals on back vintages of Bordeaux are via auctions and consignments, not traditional retail. For example, I just picked up some 1979 Pichon Lalande in great shape for $90, far less than most current release pricing even of so-so vintages like 2008.
Alex,
One of the chronic US sales problems has to do with indoctrinating new Bordeaux enthusiasts.
A good friend has a cellar full of great Middle-Upper Tier Bordeaux. He started collecting in the early 80s. For $10 - $30/bottle he could buy today’s $100 - $200+ trophy wines. The other day he popped open a 1989 La Lagune, 1989 Lafon-Rochet, 1989 Le Gay and 1990 Pichon Baron. Don’t think he paid more than $25 for any of them. The Le Gay and PB were magically good…world class. The other 2 were very elegant and could’ve been enjoyed over the past few decades.
He studied, bought on release (occasionally futures), tasted, cellared, enjoyed and evolved in to a Bordeaux-head… living comfortably with a technical job and a moderate income level. He could buy excellent wines without destroying his budget. To my knowledge, he hasn’t bought any Bordeaux since the 2005 - 2006 vintages.
Sadly, he’s also a Do-Do bird and will become extinct in 20 - 30 years. The road he followed to Bordeaux happy land doesn’t exist any more. The Bordelais may be supply/demand super geniuses, but it’ll take some extraordinary changes to generate anything close to that kind of enthusiasm again.
RT
Faryan, IMHO Bordeaux today is much more mixed than you indicate. Certainly, there are a lot of spoofed Bordeaux selling at very high prices. But there are other wineries still making wonderful wine. For example, during a recent trip to Bordeaux, I very much enjoyed a 2001 Ducru. And, I found a very interesting classified Bordeaux that I had never had before called Chateau Ferriere. My sense is that Bordeaux is a minefield today (much like California Cabernet), but if you want to buy good Bordeaux that will age, you can still do so.
On the other hand, I can see why you are backfilling. In the crazy world of today, young wines often sell for more than mature wines, which is nuts. I will be opening a 1970 Figeac tonight that I paid much less for than I would a recent vintage of Figeac.
Without points, it’s a matter of hand-selling by people who think the wines are interesting and relevant. Many (if not most) of the wines that excite the NYC crowd are being sold by this method, and not by points. I’m not sure why that would be applicable to “exciting” Bordeaux that doesn’t register on Parker’s radar. In fact, it’s probably better that they’re not.
And, Alex, I get your point that there is plenty of interesting Bordeaux out there (even if I’m not sure I agree), but there must be some examples available in the US… what are they? And what makes them exciting and interesting?
I don’t even have brain space to dedicate to the matter. That’s how disinterested I am in Bdx. It’s lumped in with Australia. I have no interest in anyone showing me a “balanced” wine from either. I don’t have time. And I’m not saying they’re equal… but since france is priced for china, they might as well be.
I haven’t bought a single bottle of bdx in… uh… I honestly can’t remember any in the past three years… and I don’t think I’d hesitate to bet I won’t again until at least ten more years of this crap has been shaken out.
So it’s been about 17 years since I started on wine, with Bordeaux (how time flies!). I suppose that puts me smack in the middle between the generation for whom fine wine was Bordeaux and the generation that says, “Bordeaux? Srsly?” I have a fondness for both camps. My first major Bordeaux purchases were cases of 2000 vintage futures, mostly super-seconds. I haven’t made any major Bordeaux purchases in years. The apologists have been insisting that Bordeaux still has a lot to offer me, as long as I am content to drink wines several tiers below the ones I started out on, and pay more for them. The amount I spent for those 2000s - from $30 for a bargain bottle like Calon Segur to about $85 for Pichon Lalande, the most expensive wine I bought - goes very far for me to this day in Burgundy, Piedmont, Rioja, the Loire, the Northern Rhone, etc. etc. etc. For me to come back to Bordeaux, I need that same range to buy me top-notch Bordeaux wines, not middling ones, because it buys me top-notch wines from elsewhere that frankly have more flexibility at the table than Bordeaux anyway.
As always, Faryan is “on point”. I agree with everything you say here, and likewise, have been backfilling for a few years, buying Bordeaux from the '80s that are about the same price as new releases of the same wine. I still have been selectively buying quality, affordable Bordeaux from some top vintages, including 2005, 2010 and a smattering of '09s. I doubt I buy anything from 2011- forward, mostly as I’m now 49 and am not looking for wines that take 20 years (some exceptions).
Some of my most recent purchases from these three vintages: Cantemerle, La Lagune, Sociando Mallet, Talbot, Gruard Larose, Gloria, GPL, VCC’s second label and a handful of others, including some great QPRs like Lanessan and Cambon La Pelouse. All of these wines were $20-$55. I have bought a few others in upper-price classes, but not many.
Bordeaux remains an important part of my cellar and drinking habits.
Robert, you always seem to deliver when it comes to specifics and practical buying advice. However Wine-Searcher doesn’t yield any real values for a number of these wines. Talbot, Gruard Larose, Grand Puy Lacoste and others are nearly all $80+ for all these vintages (2005, 2009, 2010). That is unless I’m misunderstanding you and you were referring to 2011-2013.
Keith,
I buy probably about 20 bottles of Burgundy (maybe 50) for each bottle of Bordeaux I buy, esp. over the last few years, so I am hardly on the Bordeaux bandwagon. But, this year I got at Bassins 2001 Ducru for $100 and I think that is very good value compared with other top regions. I think of Ducru as equivalent to a mid to lower level grand cru Burgundy and very few of those are available anymore for $100. Maybe some wines from Stephane Magnien or Mongeard-Mugneret or a few others. But not too many.
My reference to pricing was what I paid on the date of my purchase, not necessarily current pricing. The three you list are clearly well above that now. My reference to GPL pricing was in error, that was more expensive. Some of my “cheap” pricing came from those great emailers issued by Premier Cru, and looking at my invoices right now, this is what I paid for a few:
2010 Talbot - $39.99
2010 Dames de Montrose - $36.99
2010 GPL - $79.99
Some of these wines I reference are still available for sub-$55 in today’s marketplace (based on my local retailers): La Gravette de Certan, Cantemerle, Haut-Batailly, Poujeaux, Gloria, La Louviere (Total Wine has 2005, 09 and 10), et al.
Lots of goodies out there if we dig around. And that’s not even referencing sales and promos. I still pick up stuff on deep discounts when they arise. Just a few weeks ago my local ABC had a virtual clearance sale on Bordeaux and MarcF and I picked up quality wines for dirty cheap.
It’s much easier to just dismiss the entire region, Robert.
Looking for sales and promos is essentially my Bordeaux strategy right now. I missed the boat on Premier Crus pre-arrival offers for 2010 Bordeaux and while they have offered an occasional offer on these vintages, they haven’t been as common lately. Virtually all pre-sale offers are now the 2012 and 2013 vintages.
The greatest issue for myself isn’t that there are not some Bordeaux values out there, but that relative to other regions they’re generally weaker than everything but Burgundy. I’ve had numerous mature Bordeaux and they’re something that I greatly enjoy and desire, but you have to specifically seek them out as a collector. It’s not likely that you’ll be presented with options where they’re a comparative value. As someone who enjoys numerous regions and styles, I’ve simply done without.
I honestly don’t know whether $100 for '01 Ducru is a good price compared to where it’s been the last few years or not, but I can’t say that’s a purchase I would have made if it were right in front of me. I’d have sooner bought 2 x $50 of '01 CVNE Imperial, to cite just the first thing that came to mind. If someone is a serious Bordeaux fan who is not satisfied with much else then I suppose that deal might be nearer to the ballpark where it’s worth starting to pay attention, but it’s not there for me yet. I do admit to buying single bottles of $100 '04 Pichon Lalande and $65 '04 Leoville-Barton from the PC offer last weekend.
It is. Much.
I have no problem with that Brian. I pretty much do that with CA cab and burgundy, although I am assured that there are reasonably priced treasures I would like available for the picking. I assume that this is so. But you can’t follow (or buy!) everything.
But the incessant bleating that bordeaux is uniquely overpriced seems irreconcilable with the evidence. I have no problem finding good bdx values, and in fact have a much greater problem resisting them.
Taylor, check out Commerce Corner from time to time. I pick up 1-2 cases per year of mature Bordeaux from CC at very reasonable pricing. Just bought some 2000 Sociando Mallet, 1998 La Dominque, 2000 Haut-Batailly for $50 each and then 2003 Pontet Canet for $80. I’ve never had a problem with a fellow berserker on CC, the wines are loved just like your wines.