“For you” is definitely key. One of of the reasons that food/diet studies are all over the map is that the outcomes vary a lot across people and appear to be partly related to gut bacteria. FWIW, the two people I know who swear by intermittent fasting are both women, one mid 50s and the other (her mom) mid 80s. They follow different variants of IF, but it has worked for both of them. Doesn’t really appeal to me, but can’t argue with their results.
-Al
I am happy with my results this month, down about 14 lbs. I did three things: 1) no bread/rice/chips/fries, 2) no alcohol, and 3) 16:8 intermittent fasting. Tomorrow, I’m reintroducing the first two, but I intend to keep the third.
This is very true about stressors particularly male/female. A main component can simply be cortisol release which will do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do, too much stress is not good. Shorter IF intervals are recommended by some researchers (closer to 12/12) and even doing longer fasts weekly or monthly, but only periodically with no IF between. For me metabolism ramps up near the end of a fast, I get jittery and exercise is good. A progressive approach will limit stress, important to keep in mind these adaptations occur over months, not days or weeks. No pain no gain is not an ideal paradigm.
Absolutely. This is why I cringe when I see people attacking a new fitness regime by loading on endless hours of high intensity cardio, never taking days off etc. Too much HIIT is terribly hard on the central nervous system and raises cortisol, among other drawbacks, undermining what you’re trying to achieve in addition to increasing the potential for injury. It’s another unfortunate result of the obsession with calories in/calories out notion of weight loss, ignoring the huge part that the endocrine system plays in things. It’s also the problem that I have with things like the Peloton community, which I feel often encourages unhealthy training habits by offering praise and rewards for, for example, never taking a rest day. Of course it’s possible to use Peloton in a healthy way, but I have seen the downside over and over.
I have found the IF pattern that works for me as well – stop eating around 6PM, give or take, and fast completely until 8AM (14 hours). Coffee with MCT oil and 1T of milk at 8AM, then first meal of the day at 11 or 11:30. As you and I have discussed before, Ken, this works for me except during the summer when I’m doing hard rides in the early morning. Then I need a real meal sooner.
Just found this thread and there is a lot of good info here.
I have been on/off Keto for about 2 years now. I started right after new years in 2019 at the time I was at my all time high weight and I really just needed to do something fast and Keto sounded like something I could do. So I started the diet, stuck to it and lost 60lbs in 4 1/2 months which was totally awesome. My problem was and still is that I LOVE carbs. I make homemade pasta, bread, pizza, you name it, so I use Keto to bring me back to where I think I should be. I do Keto about 3-4 times per year for 4-6 weeks at a time. I doubt if this is the healthiest way to eat but, it works for me. The best part about it, for me, is you can’t really cheat without kicking yourself out of Ketosis so that rigidness helps me. I started back again on January 12th and have lost 19 lbs so far. I’m pretty close to where I want to be but, I think I’ll try to go a bit further than I normally do.
I use the Cronometer app, Keto Mojo monitor, I weigh and track everything I eat. I’m pretty compulsive about my numbers (ratios) and I stay under 20 net carbs per day. I do the bulletproof coffee every morning (28g butter, 28g MCT) and I don’t eat again until dinner and I usually have a snack (almonds) or keto ice cream bar (Costco) around 8pm. I don’t do any of the Keto breads or really any of the substitution foods because I find them to be disgusting, I just eat real food and limit carbs.
The diet is pretty much the opposite of everything we’ve ever been told about nutrition but, it really works. Everyone that I know that’s done it and stuck to it has lost a significant amount of weight.
Hi Pat - Thanks for chiming in. Sounds like you’re a pro! I use the same tools you do, though I don’t do ratios/percentages. It changed my keto life when I read Phinney & Volek’s admonition to forget macros and make carbs a hard limit, protein a hard goal, and then just eat as much fat as you want to feel satiated. If you aren’t afraid of fat and know how to listen to your body, it is sooooo much easier than constantly trying to up fat up without impacting protein or carbs, though of course whatever works for you is great as well. I naturally fall close to what my ratios would be anyway, but it’s great not having to think about fat at all. It’s also very helpful keeping me in a calorie deficit when I just eat as much fat as I want, not as much as the program tells me I should have. I used to end up pouring butter or oil onto things when I didn’t want any more, and that seemed stupid. I know a lot of people need that number, though, since most people are afraid to eat fatty parts of meat etc. After all, we’ve been told fat is bad for so long!
Which brings me to your other point about keto being the opposite of what we’ve been told. So true! And yet ketosis is a natural and healthy process in the body. Your brain likes ketones, they are an efficient fuel. We naturally make glucose if we need more through gluconeogenesis. It may be against popular nutritional guidance (which should tell us something about popular nutritional guidance!), but is not the least bit against biology or nature.
Yeah, I read your earlier posts and I think I’m coming around to the point that actual ratios are less important than as you said a ‘hard limit’ on carbs and protein but, i’ve never really paid attention to how many grams of protein, only the %. It’s just always worked for me and I totally agree with your point about adding fat just to hit your numbers. There was a time I would put sour cream on an omelet to hit my numbers but, I don’t do that anymore. I also feel that every time I start back up, I get into Ketosis faster and faster. This last time, I was at 1.5 in less than 48 hours. Maybe the body has something similar to ‘muscle memory’ in regard to being a fat burner but, I definitely get into it quicker and lose weight faster.
I haven’t seen any studies specifically about getting into ketosis faster with each time you do it, but anecdotally it’s the case for sure. Definitely for me. It makes sense - metabolic flexibility, the option to move between burning sugar and burning fat, seems like it would be the best situation for us from an evolutionary point of view. Until recently, fresh fruits, grains and vegetables would only have been available to people in most climates at certain times of year. It’s reasonable to assume the body learned to work with what we had. If you’ve always been a sugar burner, it makes sense to me it would take longer to get fat adapted than if your body has been in that state before. Not only do I now get into ketosis quickly without any keto flu to speak of, but when I transition to maintenance, my blood sugar never spikes as high as it once did, and I don’t really crave sugar or carbs much at all. I still love pizza and pasta and bread and rice and potatoes, it’s just pretty easy to keep them in the “treat” category rather than as staples.
That makes a lot of sense and like you, I know it happens with me. With the Keto flu, I have actually never experienced any symptoms, even the first time starting which a lot of people find odd but, what can I say? I also don’t have any bad feelings when i go back to a higher level of carbs, many people say they feel like crap when they eat a piece of pizza or other carbs after ketosis. I guess maybe I’m just lucky. ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
So you’re testing your blood or urine to determine your ketosis state?
When I try to eat better, I’m usually following a paleo diet. My wife is doing Keto right now but hasn’t brought any science to it.
I’m curious about a few things. First, how is Keto different than Atkins? Second, do you achieve a state of ketosis while adhering to paleo?
Hi Mike - Yes, both Pat and I are using a blood meter, which is a lot more accurate than urine testing. It also allows you to track blood sugar levels at the same time to see how well your glucose/insulin is being moderated. Once you’ve established what numbers (grams of carb, protein, fat) work for you, and you are firmly in ketosis, you can stop testing so long as you’re eating basically the same levels every day. I know I’m at about 2.0 - 2.6 before meal one, and a little higher before meal two, and that’s not likely to change unless I have an unusual food at a restaurant or a non-keto food. So I don’t test most days.
Keto is all about the science, which is one of the things I like about it. Briefly, the goal is to achieve a state of ketosis in which the body burns fat instead of sugar and produces ketones. There’s a ton of science behind the benefits - Phinney and Volek at Vitra Health do some of the best research, so I’d Google their work if you’re interested. The ketogenic diet is used not only for weight loss, but also for treatment of Type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer’s, Parkinsons and even brain cancer. The metabolic benefits come about by getting in the body into this very specific state of ketosis, not just by eating fewer carbs and calories.
Paleo is a good approach, and makes sense to me. I think any real foods diet, which Paleo is, is a good thing. The answer to whether paleo puts you in ketosis is - maybe. Dietary ketosis is achieved when carbohydrates are greatly reduced and protein is kept moderate and fat is high. If your paleo diet is doing those things then you may very well be in ketosis. But you might not. Fasting can also get you into ketosis, as you use up all your stored glycogen, fwiw.
There are a few differences between Atkins and WFKD (Well Formulated Ketogenic Diet, not just somebody deciding to eat nothing but butter and bacon, which might put you in ketosis, but isn’t a good idea). Atkins has several stages you are supposed to go through as you progress, in which you gradually increase carbs. WFKDs do not since you always want to be in ketosis. Atkins generally allows more protein, whereas a WFKD requires moderate protein (the exact amount is very person specific, but there are guidelines). This is for various reasons, one of the most important being that too much protein can throw you out of ketosis due to gluconeogenesis, where the body produces more glucose using protein (or other things, but that’s another story). Many people who start just eat a ton of protein and wonder why their numbers aren’t better.
The third big reason, to me, is that a WFKG is a real foods diet - vegetables, meat, nuts, seeds, dairy etc. whereas Atkins allows processed foods. Not only allows but encourages processed food, especially its own brand name products. I don’t like that part at all, either the inclusion of processed food, or the money making blitz.
Both Atkins and a WFKD can be effective for weight loss. A lot of people like Atkins because they find keto more restrictive as it never changes to more carbs, doesn’t allow processed food, and moderates protein. To me (and this is just a gut reaction thing) Atkins seems like just another cult of personality diet, albeit one that’s similar in principles to keto - a name, a brand, a line of products. A WFKD is a scientific approach to nutrient intake that seeks to achieve a metabolically beneficial state in the body. It’s also been around and its benefit recognized for a long time, with early success in treating epilepsy.
Hope that’s helpful. Sorry I didn’t have time to be more detailed!
Sarah,
Many thanks. That’s a lot more detailed than I expected. I appreciate it.
This is about as concise an explanation as you’ll likely find.
I just want to thank all the authors of this thread. I have never needed to “diet” or change my eating habits due to a cardio type lifestyle. Due to an injury and some life choices, I find myself in a position that forces me to change things up a bit. I think a switch to Keto would be a great start. I have re-read this thread 2-3 times. Thank you my wine drinking scientific generous friends.
The first two weeks of the year, I reduced caloric intake, reduced beer and wine, and paid attention to carbs. The third week I did the same thing but with greater scrutiny - much due to this thread. This past week, I have tried full keto and no alcohol. I rode 19 times for 1300 minutes in January. My first Keto blood test was today late morning with about a 13 hour fast. My numbers are Glucose 67, Ketones 2.2 and GKI 1.6. I’m not sure what that means, but I think it is good. I’m down 14.4lbs in 4 weeks with a .2lb gain last week.
When you diligently track carbs, it is pretty hard to stay under 20, but doable and I like the regimen. I’m pretty excited about watching how this works for a couple of months. I figure in another month my cycling group won’t drop me. A steak burrito without the wrap looks pretty ugly in a bowl, but it still tastes pretty good.
Well done! Those are great numbers. The GKI is most useful for those using ketosis therapeutically, but it’s still useful for those of us without health conditions if you think of it as a metabolic reset. The only catch is, if you aren’t looking to shrink a tumor or what have you, it’s not necessarily better to have ketones at 3 than at 1.5. People can get really attached to the numbers and think something has “gone wrong” if they drop to 1.5. The body may decide to make a little extra glucose one day for reasons you’ll never know, and that’s fine. Ideal range for weight loss is between 1.5 and 3, but that’s very much fuzzy. Stick to the plan and if you get an occasional blip here or there outside the normal range, when you haven’t eaten anything unusual, don’t sweat it.
Phinney and Volek have done some great work with endurance athletes on fully ketogenic diets - you should check out their research if you are interested in seeing how it might affect your cycling performance.
As for the burrito bowl: just throw some nice lettuce in first and call it a salad. It will make more sense and be less disappointing than thinking of it as a naked burrito.
Enjoy the ride!
So glad to see this thread bumped again. It’s now been a year since I adopted Keto with a 16:8 Intermittent Fasting regimen, after having been Paleo for about 6 years.
My 20-something year old kids came home in March, at the beginning of the pandemic, and due to difficulties grocery shopping, I basically told them we are a Keto house and if they wanted carbs, they could shop/cook for themselves. Both adapted quickly and we have all pretty much stuck to Keto and IF ever since.
The one issue I have is that my cholesterol has significantly increased; always had relatively low total/bad cholesterol previously. My doctor is not concerned because it’s primarily my “good” cholesterol driving the total number, but we are keeping track (since “bad” increased too) and I have cut back on some of the saturated fat.
Shout out and many thanks to Sarah in particular. Your posts are incredibly informative! I ordered Volek & Phinney’s The Art of Low Carbohydrate Living based on what you wrote above. I read Jason Fung’s The Obesity Code a year ago to start this journey, and I want to continue understanding the science. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to share your knowledge and experience with us.
Hi Sherri - I’m so glad you are finding this thread useful and that you are having good results on this diet.
Regarding your cholesterol - It’s very common for people on keto to see their LDL rise. There’s good reason, though, not to get too stressed about it. I’d encourage you to read the latest research around the complexities of LDL cholesterol, which we’ve unfortunately labeled “bad” across the board. We’ve learned a lot since that label first got applied - there is still a lot to learn - and many doctors are not up on the latest (or don’t care to be, when there’s just an easy box to tick). It is looking more and more likely that total LDL load is not the important indicator. Research is strongly showing that particle count is much more important, or particles size (big and fluffy is better than small and dense); but of course no one tests for those things because it’s much easier to just say “here’s your total LDL and it’s bad/good.” Of course it’s still a good idea to watch and keep an eye on your own numbers.
I’m not an expert, but from what I understand, it seems to be true that, though total LDL cholesterol does tend to be higher on a high fat low carb diet, HDL is also usually higher and triglycerides are low, from which we can extrapolate that the LDL particles are not the ones you have to worry about. The benign version of high LDL associated with HFLC, with high HDL, low trigs and healthy particle size/count is known as Pattern A as opposed to Pattern B.
There’s some indication that it’s a combination of high saturated fat and high sugar that leads to unhealthy LDL and atherosclerosis. Why? Because high glucose and insulin can cause glycation and oxidation of the LDL proteins. Healthy LDL particles are just doing their job, and will get taken up by the liver by specialize receptors. But if they are damaged, they can’t get removed by the liver. So if you have a lot of LDL AND they are getting damaged, that’s the worse case scenario.
Here is a really good and accessible video about cholesterol on a low carb diet. Dr. Paul Mason is definitely an advocate of the low carb/keto lifestyle, so it’s no unbiased, but it’s quite compelling. All his videos are good, I think I’ve watched at least a dozen:
Dr. Peter Attia is also very good - you can Google his videos.
DISCLAIMER: I’m not a doctor, and I’m not a scientist. What I’m writing about here is my understanding based on the research and reading I’ve done. I encourage everyone to do their own. There’s still a lot we don’t know, but I do think we know more than what is being communicated as gospel when it comes to nutrition and health.
In addition to the people Sarah mentioned above you can look at video/podcasts from:
Dr. Dom D’Agostino - ketogenic dieting and the physiology behind it
Dr. Dan Plews - low carb and endurance performance
Dr. Mark Hyman - General health / functional medicine / whole foods
Dr. Peter Attia should also get a big star next to his name, Sarah mentioned him above, but it was at the end of the post and could get lost in the mix. I religiously listen to his podcast on longevity which mixes in all sorts of great info on healthy living.
In regard to cholesterol, here is a snippet from a Mark Hyman post about cholesterol management and specifically which tests to get. “…NMR Lipid Panel from LabCorp or the Cardio IQ Test from Quest Diagnostics…” These are the two tests that can show you chlosterol particle size, which is arguable much more important than your good/bad cholesterol stats. https://drhyman.com/blog/2016/01/14/7-ways-to-optimize-cholesterol/
Thanks, Tim. I appreciate your highlighting Dr. Attia as I did kind of leave him hanging at the bottom. I tend to start people with Dr. Mason because he is less technical and very accessible, but Dr. Attia is quite brilliant and engaging as well. I also follow his podcast.
I regularly get incensed at how far behind mainstream medicine and nutritional guidelines remain to this day. It’s like they’ve all decided to ignore the last 10 years of research, and leave people blindly accepting the party line from decades ago. To reiterate, there’s a lot we still don’t know. But we learn more and more all the time!