By the way (not to pile on, but to pile on I suppose) when we are speaking about dumbing down of the system, I have only two words for that: Spotted Pig.
agreed. but there are tons in Europe as well. And just as many 3-stars that are resting on laurels.
the Michelin guide is very faulty on both sides of the pond. I just took great exception to the very sweeping generalization that it’s somehow dumbed down for the USA. It is not.
The Michelin guide is more relevant in Europe in judging that type of cuisine and service. Restaurants like Le Bernardin, Per Se, Daniel, etc. serve the same genre of cuisine and offer that level of service so they can be judged by that standard. Judging by European standards they would be 2 stars at most. Especially if Taillevent is 2 stars. It is not an insult to be 2 stars by European standards. Here they get 3.
I think what you are trying to get at is there is great food in the US which I agree. But they may be in a casual setting or not offer that level of service to garner stars. For example the food at Red Medicine is as beautiful, creative, and innovative as what you’ll find at at a 2 or even 3 star. But given its casual decor and loud music, it may not even garner 1. Doesn’t mean it’s not a good restaurant. It is a weakness of the Michelin criteria. Also a restaurant like n/naka or Shunji in LA serving amazing kaiseki may also not garner the stars the food deserves due to setting or service or cuisine itself. But doesn’t mean the food isn’t on par with Europe’s 2-3 stars.
That is why the Michelin guide is less relevant here in the US and why they need to give some extra stars here and there to help sell the guide. They no longer rate LA probably because of that difficulty. Not because LA is devoid of delicious worthy cuisine.
In summary, there are many great restaurants in the US without stars or without the appropriate stars. That is an error in the guide’s criteria not the restaurant. But if you come to a US 3 star expecting an European 3 star experience, you will be disappointed, as the OP was.
Hi Wilfred , so good to hear from you . Btw , I am in Chicago on Sunday October 6 ! ( we have an all week meeting there ) . Hopefully , we can get together to discover a great Chicago restaurant !
For me , a 3 star experience should be something unforgettable . Unique . An exception . At le Bernardin , that will never be possible as they serve way to many people . A famous chef once told me 30 to 35 people is the maximum he could handle . ( at El Bulli , that was it , even if there were well over 50 chefs working in the kitchen ) .
Regarding European restaurants , it’s difficult to generalize because you visit these places once or twice in a life time . I don’t know enough about the top US resto’s , I loved Per Se , found Daniel and others overrated . This is not about Europe versus US , I think that is nonsense to start with . Belgium and the US have more in common than Greece versus Finland .But some of my thoughts about the top European restaurants :
- many French 3-stars are VASTLY overrated , especially in Paris . The arrogance is also difficult to swallow . Best French 3 stars are in the " province " , like Troisgros where the people are friendly and generous .
- I have even worse experiences in Italy . The last one I visited was in Modena , the nr 5 on the San Pelegrino’s list of best restaurants in the world . I think the food in my local Chinese restaurant in my home village is superior . Dal Pescatore is great for its provincial ambiance , not for it’s unique food .
- Spain these days is the real deal . I had fabulous dinners at El Bulli , Celler de Can Rocca , Martin Beratasegui and others . But also simple local restaurants like Cal pep in Barcelona . And it is soooo cheap in comparison with France .
- my favorite restaurants in Europe are these 3 Spanish ones . Also : de Librije in Zwolle ( yes , the Netherlands ) , Hof van Cleve and het Fornuis ( Antwerp ) in Belgium , Troisgros and L’Arnsbourg in France , the fat Duck and that new restaurant in London in the Mandarin hotel ( dinner by Heston Blumenthal ? I forgot .
_ Germany is vastly underrated . Restaurant Vendome , near Dusseldorf is relly great .
–I was not overly impressed by Noma in Kopenhagen . Been there 3 times but did not find it a unique experience .
Years ago I read “The Fourth Star” about life behind the scenes at Daniel – it was published in 2003.
The wine manager said that the mark-up at Daniel was 3.5, and that still seems to be accurate for this kind of restaurant.
Herwig - excellent thoughts and we agree regarding Spain. And refreshing to have a European call out the Parisian restos so accurately.
Herwig, October it is! But I am also in NYC weekly where I also have an apartment, so we must meet up there as well!
Dal Pescatore is great for its family atmosphere with Nadia in the kitchen and her husband and dog welcoming the guests, but as you say the food is not the focus. This is why I mentioned I excluded other countries except France and Belgium. Glad you found a restaurant in Holland you like! For me, I have yet to find such a place but I have heard the librije in Zwolle is good.
So it seems Michelin grades on a curve, so to speak, relative to each country.
It seems we all agree on one thing: Troisgros is an exceptional restaurant. For me, it is the best restaurant in the world.
In Europe the answer to this is “yes” and you need to have a place to stay in house unless you are in Paris or a very large city. This would allow Le Bernadin a pass in NYC.
While, as stated, my fairly recent Le Bernardin meal wasn’t perfect, this whole “extras” thing has me perplexed.
Amuse? Chocolates? Breakfast bread?
If you know they come as part of the meal, they aren’t extras. If you know they aren’t coming as part of the meal, you aren’t disappointed at missing them.
We had 45 courses at el Bulli, about what we expected, so we didn’t get “extras,” right?
Personally, I like the NYT four-star scale better than the Michelin three-star scale, because, to me, the difference between three and four stars largely involves environment and formality.
To me, they’re extras if they aren’t on the menu.
Been to LB once, will not return. Service rushed, prices not justified, food above average. So many great places in NYC.
I agree with Yaacov on this one. Per Se, TFL, and Alinea aren’t necessarily my favorite restaurants on the planet, but there is zero question that they are Michelin Three-Star restaurants under nearly any possible criteria. I think the argument can certainly be made for EMP, JG, Daniel, Bernardin, Masa as well. Manresa and Urasawa are easily in high-level Michelin Two-Star territory.
There’s no doubt in my mind that the true top places in France – L’Arpege, Gagnaire, Troisgros, Bras, Le Louis XV etc. – surpass the best the US has to offer, but I think the majority of top places in Europe (especially in France, and especially in Italy) would be crushed in any objective side-by-side comparison with Per Se (so long as one didn’t overvalue a reasonably priced wine list), TFL, etc. (In my experience, Michelin relaxes its standards the most for Italy, where some two-star places likely wouldn’t garner a single star in NY).
The current question in my mind is whether anything in Europe or the US can compete with the best of what Japan has to offer right now. A relatively recent trip to Japan yielded three of the top 5 meals I’ve had in my life, and I didn’t come close to scratching the surface.
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Two points about the wine. first when restaurant people are discussing the wine pricing it generally means over the wholesale price.
To compare wine pricing between US restaurants and French who are paying cellar door prices is not possible. They are not playing on the same field.
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Nick, although that’s true from the standpoint of “fair” pricing, it is very relevant and worth discussing if I’m going to a fine restaurant in Europe where I’m paying a lot less than in the USA. Its not that the US restaurants are gouging, but its that I can get a comparatively much better deal in Europe so its worth taking into account. I don’t think Herwig was aware of US pricing on the wine he mentioned but by his standards and purchase power, its marked up astonishingly compared to his home market.
Ryan , you raise an interesting point . Tokyo’s finest restaurants are indeed a unique experience . I went to a couple of 3 stars there . But it’s like comparing an Aston Martin to a Rolls Royce . It’s so different . I went to one place in some obscure place down town Tokyo : a plain small row house , we were sitting at a bar , the restaurant only served 8 people , you ate what the chef wanted to give you , the wine list was a little book with wine labels attached to the dirty pages etc . But the food was fantastic . Unforgettable and that is the true 3 star experience . But it’s stretching it a little to question whether Europe’s and US finest can compete with them . I think the top surpasses them .
I’m just trying to put things in perspective. Herwig claimed they were marking up 6 to 8 times. I’m pointing out that is incorrect.
There is absolutely no way any place in Europe can top the hospitality of the best Japan has to offer as well. Basically, it’s ingrained in their culture.
Nick , you are right , it’s 6 to 8 times more versus the prices I pay .
Marc , that’s a generalization , one I agree with , but by definition , there are MANY exceptions . In addition , the non-formal warm hospitality you get in many European restaurants is different from the more formal Japanese way of receiving guests . One is not better than the other .
I’m probably in the minority, but I was completely underwhelmed by Eleven Madison Park. No dishes stood out and each course we tried I felt like I’ve had a similar, but better version of elsewhere. Conversely, I have loved both visits to Le Bernardin and I would easily say it’s at the *** level. I also don’t think it’s fair to compare *** in Paris to *** in Norway, USA, Asia, or anywhere else. Each place has its own culture, customers and local products. If all *** were the same all over the world, it sure would get boring. I have enjoyed the over the top *** in France that shower you will all the “extras”, but I also enjoy amazingly fresh sea food from Le Bernardin, and the child like fun of a Fat Duck or the tiny jewel box of a dining room like Royal Hospital Road to name a few. To me they all have that something special in their own way which makes them stand at the top and I’m glad they are all different.
I had lunch at Le Bernardin yesterday, and I came away a bit underwhelmed.
Amuse: salmon rillette. We’ are provided pieces of toast on which to spread the rillette. Tasty enough, but … rillette is a pretty rustic preparation. I googled the recipe when I got home and I could make this pretty easily. Where’s the technique, the invention, the refinement?
Bread: they have six or seven selections. I had a plain baguette. It was cold and not particularly fresh.
First course: “surf and turf” – bone marrow and sea urchin. This is served with the bone split in half lengthwise. The urchin is then spread along the top of the bone over the marrow, garnished with a couple of chunks of bacon. Also served with toast points: you are instructed to scoop the marrow/uni out of the bone and spread it on toast. This is very good, with a nice balance between the rich texture of the marrow and the strong oceany flavor of the uni. But the bacon is superfluous and adds nothing, and it’s kind of messy to eat. Plus we’ve now seen “stuff you spread on toast points” twice.
My girlfriend ordered a yellowfin tuna/foie gras preparation. The tuna is layered over the foie, which is then layered over a baguette, and then the whole thing is pounded flat and drizzled with olive oil. The tuna was excellent but I felt the foie got lost a bit here, and it didn’t seem like that much foie was actually on the plate.
Second course: Halibut with “black truffle pot au feu”. The halibut I think is poached (I suspect either in olive oil or sous-vide, not sure), and then served with a shaving of black truffle on top and two sauces which are poured over the fish tableside. One is a dashi-style beef broth, the other is a truffle cream sauce with celeriac and artichoke. The sauces are wonderful, but the way the sauces mix on the plate is kind of messy and inelegant from a visual perspective. Nevertheless, this is delicious.
My girlfriend ordered a snapper baked en papillote and served with a citrus-rosemary jus. To me the fish didn’t have much flavor but the sauce was brilliant.
Dessert: What I ordered was described as “Warm Pecan “Tart”, Red Wine Poached Pear, Bourbon Caramel”. When I asked why the word ‘tart’ was in quotation marks, I was told this was a deconstructed tart. Well, it’s really just a pecan tart, with a poached pear, some ice cream, and caramel sauce. It tastes fine enough I guess if you like pecan tart, but it’s not special in any way, and I couldn’t see what was “deconstructed” about it.
Petit fours: three pieces of a cinnamon financier. Yawn.
Wine: It’s a very good list, esp. for white burg. Markups are generally in the 2.5-3x NYC retail range, which is actually not too bad for NYC (a lot of places mark up 3.5x retail now), and there’s a fairly good selection under $150, with some decent choices under $100, which is not always the case at high-end restaurants in NYC. The strong Japanese influence on the menu, however, can make pairing a bit tricky. BTG selections are mostly horrendously overpriced, esp. for the sweet wines (only wines I tend to order by the glass - two people can’t really split a bottle of port at one meal).
Conclusion: Several delicious things to eat, but lacking an extra level of refinement/perfection/wow factor that I’d expect in a 3*. I haven’t eaten at the 3*s in France, but I had a lunch at Taillevent a few months ago that was significantly more impressive in just about every way.
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