to play devils advocate, 2013 got 100 points, 04 first vintage got 99. but at this price, it is still insane.
i assume they just sell it to people who already buy harlan and sloan, and want to ‘diversify’ a little with another label. style wise, it’s bob’s harlan’s 40+ day extended maceration coupled with martha getting like 1 cluster per shoot a la Sloan.
So what becomes of wineries like this?
It seems that nobody buys the wine, so how do they stay in business?
They can’t possibly survive off restaurants at this price point, so how do they make it?
Anyone have an idea regarding total production?
They must have high overhead, so how do they do it?
Harlan has the name and track record to sell overseas, but what happens to folks like these?
I checked out the 2012 vintage on CT and it shows there are 126 bottles in CTer cellars. Of course, not everyone has their wines in CT so the number could be more like 150. Comparatively, the Harlan Estate has slightly over 3000 bottles in CTer cellars.
Do have their own facility or are they making it someone else’s winery? If the latter, that could keep costs down.
Do they own any vineyards?
I’ve been following this thread and have to confess I find the mild antipathy flowing through it to be a bit perplexing. On the one hand, we have an undeniably accomplished winemaker couple, not only known for Harlan and Sloan but also Vineyard 7&8, Checkerboard, Hamel and perhaps others I cannot recall off the top of my head. That they try to collaborate on a proprietary project in between their day jobs ought to be celebrated, one would think. They source fruit from great Napa vineyards rather than from their own estate. Nothing unconventional there. Think Russel Bevan, Andy Erickson, TRB, Mike Smith, et al for most (in some cases, all) of their rightly revered wine offerings. I am glad Martha, Bob and these others have access to such fine fruit and a willingness to give it a go. So what else is in play here? They have the temerity to charge prices many find very high under the circumstances. Okay, I get that, no reason anyone needs to buy, and if they do they indeed can feel free to label it one’s “worst wine purchase ever,” as that is a subjective opinion not subject to second guessing. But why do they come to be deemed (by at least one or two, anyway) “the poster child for over-priced Napa wine” or words to that effect? It’s not that they are unaccomplished parvenus. Are they unduly profiteering? To the contrary, it seems most just find their pricing to be a puzzling and perhaps a self-defeating mistake in judgment it seems, based on my reading of the above. Perhaps what irks some is the perceived arrogance of it, I suppose, as if they are daring to ride the coattails of their pedigree and command an undue premium? We know from Roy Piper’s fascinating posts how difficult it is to cover fixed costs when buying fruit from high-end vineyards. Roy seems to be making it work with pricing that, if memory serves, began at $125 a bottle and has reached $150. I don’t know how to draw out the comparison much further. Is his fruit cheaper to buy then L&M? Are their production volumes different? Does the pedigree of one set of winemakers justify a variance of any sort? Perhaps something to do with restrictions from employers relying on winemakers to support pricing of those estates’ own product? These, to me, are interesting topics, as to which I would love Roy and others for more expertise than me to share insights as I suspect a dispassionate exploration would be very illuminating.
Sorry for the mini-rant, just trying to wrap my head around the tone I perceive here. FWIW, I have only had one bottle of Levy & McClellan, a 2006 a few months ago, which I thought was downright stunning, enough that I am keeping my eye out for others I can accumulate selectively at opportunistic pricing. I don’t think I would sign up for their club, at least not without more personal experience with their product, but that is just me. I am thrilled to have the opportunity to opt in and out amongst a tremendously diverse universe of careful artisans Who seem to excel at their craft.
Best,
Jonathan
Great post. You captured what I too have been thinking. Capitalism is a great system. The producer is free to try and maximize profits by charging whatever they perceive the market will bear. The consumer is free to vote with their pocketbook by buying or not buying, as the case may be for many here. Nothing wrong with either of those, so why it needs to border on personal towards the winery owners I find hard to understand.
I purchased for the first several vintages, but ultimately dropped off because I simply have too much wine to follow yet another expensive producer. I found the wines to be terrific, as you would expect given the winemaking experience of Bob and Martha.
The fact that they are still in business suggests that their business model is working somewhat. Good for them. I have found them to be extremely warm and friendly people, and I am happy to see them succeed.
I’ve probably been the most negative here, so I’ll respond.
I have nothing against these two – who I had never heard of before this thread. (Well, actually I did find that website so extraordinarily pretentious and pompous.) It’s the whole cult/mailing list culture that repels me – people chasing wines they’ve never tasted based simply on the winemakers’ names. And paying kind of ludicrous prices for them. L&F does seem to embody that in its most expensive form.
As someone who does a lot of blind tasting, I’d really love to know if people who buy these wines ever taste them blind against other cabs at lower price points with less of a marketing story. Reading all the posts on new mailing list offers here, it seems there’s an enormous stampede effect – the fear that one is missing out on something – that drives the market more than any rational assessment of the wines.
Obviously people are entitled to buy what they like and pay what they want to, and I guess I shouldn’t be raining on the parade, but I’m kind of morbidly fascinated by the whole cult wine phenomenon, and that website really set me off.
I’m a bit at a loss on some of the comments intimating a “personal animosity” in other comments towards the couple.
I don’t really see anything of the sort. What I see is a commentary on what many perceive as ridiculous pricing for a product with no track record. Yes, the couple has a strong record and obvious talent, but I see nobody disparaging that fact. Certainly having an opinion on their pricing and business model is not that - it is simple questioning their pricing and business model. And at their pricing model, it is certainly a legitimate question, and thinking it is an way too high is a legitimate opinion.
I think the “antipathy flowing through” this thread is largely due to a theory that Adam Grant talks about in his Ted Talk, “Are you a giver or a taker?”
My guess is that the folk’s that are voicing that they are upset, offended, or whatever you want to call it are “matchers” that perceive the L&M model to be a “taker”.
In his TED talk, Adam talks about how a matcher treats people the way they feel that they are being treated…they give to givers, and they punish the hell out of takers. It seems like some folks felt like this asking price was too high and they’re now happy to point out that it doesn’t seem like a sustainable model.
IMO, I think this thread has been fine regarding discussions on this L&M offering. The discussions have been mostly related to how the wines perform and if they are worth the coin. For wines which can be tasted blind and be recognized as the best, or for being WOTN in a cult tasting, then maybe (just maybe) the wines are worthy of praise. In this case, many folks have not heard of these wines so there are questions surrounding the value of this wine. As with many other items in a capitalistic society, where value cannot stand on it’s own, haut couture status can only be obtained through marketing. I am not saying this is the case as I have never tasted L&m wines. It appears to me this brand may not yet be significantly established such that everyone is familiar with it and equates it to the likes of Harlan, Sloan, Screagle, or any other Napa cult wine some people are willing to pay through the nose for. Is it good, is it bad, or is it still in its infancy? If the latter, then it may be overpriced until cult establishment is obtained.
They end up on wtso, list price$450 our price $100 
I wrote that my purchase was a bad decision. Maybe context would help. The wine was good. Maybe even great. But, I got caught up in the hype. I didn’t have the money to pay for it, but didn’t want to be left behind on the next big thing. I have learned that isn’t the way to learn about and appreciate wine.
This debuted before the recession at a very reasonable price of only $350 per bottle. Now after a decade of dominance equaled by no other in Napa, Levy and McClellan has reached the peak of the cult wine hierarchy! Harlan nor Bryant nor Screaming Eagle can match up to L&M. It’s the pinnacle of production, the juggernaut of juice, the triumph of terroir. This brand is blitzing blind tastings, dominating Dominus, and conquering Colgin. Ladies and gentleman, by all means, back up the truck at the L&M loading dock.
Jonathon does make some really interesting points indeed, and it’s easy to ‘take sides’ here, especially if you are not a fan of Napa and ‘cult wines’. And what folks are willing to pay for wine certainly seems objective here - I’ve seen many new winemakers in many regions offering wines well above what established wineries in the area charge, but because of ‘pedigree’ or ‘relationships’, these wines are highly sought after, even though, to me, they are ‘over-priced’ based on what’s currently available from that area.
There are many ways to do things in our industry, and there is no one ‘right’ way. I’m sure that they thought long and hard about their pricing, as did Roy Piper and others. Everyone probably goes through sessions where they try to come up with ‘sweet spot pricing’ ensuring that they are able to sell through but still make a good profit. Some want to make more money than others. And some reason that in places like Napa, this is a ‘luxury good’ and ‘normal pricing models’ don’t really apply.
I know that they are sourcing from great vineyards and have great pedigrees, but so do others from the area that have chosen not to submit themselves to this by pricing their wines ‘more fairly’ in their eyes.
But as with everything else in wine and on this board, YMMV . . .
Cheers.
Does the pedigree of one set of winemakers justify a variance of any sort?
Schrader is available at several places for about $250. It’s a lot of money but it has a track record. The guy who made it, TRB, made a Pinot under his own label. It goes for $50 or so.
Screaming Eagle was made by Heidi Barrett. Most expensive wine ever made in CA. Her own wine, La Sirena, goes for $100 to $150.
Phillipe Melka worked at Haut Brion and Petrus, among other places. His own wine goes for around $150.
I don’t think anyone cares what the L&M people charge, nor did I see any antipathy. Just bewilderment at the fact that someone would come out of the gate with one of the most expensive wines on the market and no pent-up demand for it, no natural market for it, no compelling story behind it, and no apparent plan other than trying to snag people who seemed willing to pay a lot of money for wine.
For better or worse, people like Helen Turley has made herself a name and whatever she does, she’ll get some press somewhere. Bob Levy is probably a great guy and I wish him well. But he should get himself a better PR agent if he wants his name to be a brand.
Where does L&M go from here? Clearly they are reaching out to new buyers, many of whom have never bought it, and at $450 never will. Tough situation for this proprietor. I have no idea what their annual production is? Perhaps they can keep the label alive by reducing production?
This may be the next 90+ (The brand) from Napa!!
Signed up for the waiting list(just for fun) when I saw this thread 3 weeks ago and PRESTO! got an offer today. These folks sure ain’t SE or SQN…
I wonder what percentage of their production is actually sold? <25% maybe. Perhaps a price drop to $115 might get things moving and garner some much needed demand.
Randomly signed up and immediately got an offer. Looks like prices have gone up, $500 for the L&M, $200 for the Ampersand. He’s got the pedigree and I’d like to try, but price of entry is to steep for me.