I could understand if the wine list was made to pair with the menu, but most aren’t. In VA they passed a BYOB law last July, and very few restaurants either allow it, or their corkage is so high it’s not worth bringing a bottle from home (not high end, special occasion places). This frustrates me, as I love good wine and food pairings, and always check out a wine list along with a menu before going to a new place. This is why I rarely go out to eat here and tend to do it more in Philly with my wine buddies up there where we never pay corkage. So, since I object, I take my dollars and business elsewhere. Restaurants are crazy in this economy to not do anything possible to bring customers in the door. If they are so dependent on wine list mark-ups for their profit margins, maybe they shouldn’t be in business, IMHO.
Quite a few high end and better (IMO) restaurants charge $35 corkage so this is pushing it. He obviously doesn’t like corkage so he should man up and not allow it if that’s how he feels.
Hey, I think that we are missing something here. Think about the economics that are involved in a fine restaurant that has a substantial offering of fine wine on their list, especially wine with some age to it. First they have to purchase the wine and pay the shipping just like you and I do many years in advance. Then they have to store the wine in a temperature and humidity controlled environment in a dedicated space, sometimes for many years. Then there is the cost of keeping track of the inventory and spoilage and theft. This all costs money, labor and energy not to mention the present value of the dollar on the inventory while the restaurant ages the wine. I am not in the restaurant business but I can see how the costs can add up in maintaining a large inventory not to mention the carrying cost alone on a million dollars of wine.
What are the corkage fees? It’s good you’re doing Byob in Philly, markups are typically 3 to 4 times retail.
They must really get pissed when people order beer. That’s what I would do
MB doesn’t allow corkage at Tarry Lodge in Portchester, NY. The guy is a douche.
It’s not about $50 corkage. That’s ok. It’s him, his attitude, and the fact that he stole from his waitstaff.
Most owners waive corkage for regulars so that their staff gets a bigger tip. I routinely tip 30% if corkage is waived. no way MB would do this!!
Good chef - rotten attitude = no business from me
I’m pretty much fine with most of what’s been said regarding the arrogance in his reply, and the ridiculous pricing, but do feel that you have one glaring oversight in your post that should be kept in mind. As a veteran of the food service industry I would point out that there are VERY few fine dining restaurants able to turn a profit on food alone.
To help illustrate this point keep in mind the following about successful fine dining restaurants:
- they tend to be in areas where real estate prices and rental prices are very expensive
- they tend to have decor and ambiance that convey luxury and wow you…rarely cheaply accomplished.
- they tend to put a premium on training and retaining talent- be it chefs, servers, sommeliers, etc.
- they tend to be more fully staffed (both in the back (kitchen) and front (service) of the house)
- they tend to build into their margins a greater percentage of corrections to proactively satisfy dissatisfied guests (“O, you didn’t realize you hated morels prior to ordering…no problem, I’ll bring you something else”)
- they tend to purchase quality ingredients which better showcase vision at the expense of super high markups
For years I worked in a fine-dining restaurant in the trendy Pearl District of Portland, OR. Every time I’d get a complaint about a $38, 12oz. grass-fed Ribeye steak, I’d have to hush the teacher inside of me who yearned to explain that “They were choosing to eat and enjoy the atmosphere of an area of the city which charges $23,000 a month rent. And if we were to abandon any of the above six factors we’d certainly not stay in business very long.”
In summary, all of these things combine to ensure that alcohol sales are what allows most fine dining restaurants to stay in business. Mom & Pop destinations, or long established restaurants often either don’t suffer from the same issues outlined above, or don’t value each of them at the same level. They may be able to get by with no alcohol sales, or much more reasonable markups, but the industry is too competitive and expensive for the majority.
Aside from crazy rent, I think all those casino restaurants have to pay a percentage of the GROSS to the house just like if you are in a shopping mall.
But still, that’s no reason to act like that.
Does he carry only current vintages? The 2006 Sassicaia and Ornellaia were probably just released
two years ago. If I brought a wine to this restaurant it would certainly be something older - a wine
I wouldn’t expect to find on the list - and something I wanted to enjoy in its maturity. Consequently
the $50 corkage wouldn’t be as big a problem as the wine list deficiency.
Hank ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Sure, but doesn’t any good retailer have the same issues? Why should a restaurant charge 3-4x as much for the same bottle? And very few restaurants actually have substantial back vintage offerings, and most of those are auction purchases (with the same provenance issues all auction purchases have) where the restaurant has not invested in aging the wine themselves; I don’t think there are many restaurants actually buying wine for the purpose of aging it many years.
The ONLY really good justification (from a consumer’s perspective) for the big restaurant markup is that you can send it back if something’s wrong with it. You’re effectively paying more for the insurance. I still don’t think it’s good value (although with post-96 white burg it might be).
Plus, I think everyone knows (as Chris discusses) that the wine program is a huge money-maker for restaurants; at many high-end restaurants the drinks effectively subsidize the food. If there’s some kind of cost structure problem, it’s on the food side, not the wine side.
Why most consumers will refuse to pay any more than the break-even cost of the food but will grossly overpay for the drinks is an interesting question.
Empirical issue: do restaurants charge more for food, relative to rent, in cities like Philadelphia where it’s difficult to get a liquor license? Do the BYOs in Philly charge more for food (adjusted for rent) than the non-BYOs (are there any? I don’t know)?
Totally agree. All of what I mentioned above does not excuse his making the shortsighted and damaging reply that he did. As much as I’d have loved to embark on my teacher lecture (see above) for all those clueless complainers, I knew even as a mere server that it would be counterproductive to my aim of a decent tip. As a restaurant owner and food icon his stakes are that much higher. You’d think after the recent flap of cheating his employees he’d keep his mouth shut and concentrate on repairing his brand rather than drawing a line in the sand…
This was always my take on the issue. Corkage policy plays into my decisions regarding top tier restaurants. The audience you alienate with a bad policy in this area are probably a group you want as customers, or so it would seem to me.
The wine list is quite extensive, 22 pages long. I was just looking for stuff I was confident would be at retail now.
This was my post about a month ago. Many places don’t have older bottles, so many of us at least would not be too interested in spending that much money on an overly young wine.
I am fine with the $50 corkage.
I am fine with his response.
I really like the wine list at Babbo and while I haven’t been for two years, I never have a problem finding an interesting wine for $65 or less.
The comparison to Wine Searcher seems fair (I’m assuming it’s WS low price, not high price).
What do you think the markup on the bottled water is? Or a coke?
Corkage is far from pure profit unless you bring your own glasses and do your own wine related work and clean up as well.
Agree 100%. My thought on the appropriate fee is what would you charge that you are just as happy to see the customer come in with a bottle of wine in their hand as without.
I’ve had snotty BYO service at places with low corkage; I’d truly rather they raise the corkage fee at those places (although it doesn’t matter since I pretty much don’t go back).
And, just using pure economics, I see that wine for sale retail today at MacArthur for $99. $99 + $50 = $149 << $280. Big corkage is irritating, but far less than being forced into ordering something you’re not crazy about and paying an absurd mark up. Coming from a land where corkage is rarely allowed (and usually illegal), I could live with $50 at a high end restaurant.
Chris
This always seems like a strange excuse to me. Do they pay for wine glasses separately and have an extra busboy for wine with corkage fees? Of course not. Those are all regular items that are paid for with the cost of running the restaurant just as is your water glass and bread plates that cause extra cleanup. No one would complain about a nominal fee but when it starts going north of $20 you really have to wonder what the motivation is and what exactly it is you are ‘paying for’.
Tom, in VA now they range from $10 to $25 per bottle at places I’ve been, none high end. In Philly the food prices seem to be about the same as here in NoVA, so I don’t think that is the reason, Corey. Philly has been a big BYOB town for years and maybe it has to do with the State Store system and the restaurants not having much selection themselves. When we do offlines and have 18-20 bottles opened, corkage can really add up and impact prices of attending an event. The Philly offline in May we’re doing at Sonata is $85 per person, but we’re taking over the whole restaurant and they have to cover their expenses for the night. Add in $20/bottle corkage and it’s not such a good deal. There are so many great BYOB places I want to try in Philly we’ll never get bored dining out. Not so here in NoVA, the land of the many chain restaurants.
While I share your threshhold of $20-25 acting as the line of what I find acceptable, I think its important to keep in mind that your corkage isn’t really “paying for” anything. While it’s obviously pure profit for the owner, it’s real function is to act as a tax. Just like most taxes its function is to encourage behaviors you desire (avoiding roads at peak hours, carpooling, stop smoking, recycle, etc.)- which in this case is to purchase off list at prices that keep the restaurant afloat.
Just playing devil’s advocate here (I don’t know enough specifics about overhead at this restaurant, or its quality), but I would guess that somebody in a decision making capacity has carefully thought through their list prices, and aligned them to the point they feel assists in keeping the restaurant profitable. While exhorbitant, and unacceptable to most wine lovers nationwide, you have to keep in mind that it is Vegas.
Every time I go to New York I bitch about the $9-10 domestic beers. After a suitable amount of grudging indignation I usually remember all the things I mentioned in my earlier post, and acknowledge that I appreciate that New York has a diverse and thriving dining scene. If alcohol prices were to come down in order to match other markets, literally hundreds of Manhattan restaurants would be forced to close their doors due to their inability to fund the overhead (again, described above) involved in running a fine dining restaurant in NYC.