Matt Kramer on New World Pinot

[Andrew_Kaufman]

I was at a Drouhin tasting (actually two over the course of two years) hosted by Philipe(Duke of Bourbon) and he went one step further. California CANNOT, he said, make drinkable Pinot.

[M_Dildine]

I think he makes valid points concerning the need for clonal variety. But to set Burgundy on a mystical, non-rational 2+2=5 pedestal is pure hyperbole and ignores some of the most relevant recent developments in the wine world. Stating that Burgundy is “different” takes little imagination and parrots conventional wisdom.

To my mind and palate, Burgundy is the overpriced, overhyped, longstanding world standard. The reining “establishment” if you will.

Much more interesting (at least to me) is the march to attain greatness in other parts of the world.

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

@Kevin Harvey

Meanwhile, Matt discusses the New World’s reliance on Science but I don’t think he articulated his real point very well. I think he was trying to make a point about the primacy of terroir and in some cases New World producers might be asking the wrong question. Instead of asking science to tell them “How do I make the best wine in the world from this piece of land I already have?”, he thinks they should be asking “Where is a piece of land that can produce truly distinguished wine?” Of course science can be used to help answer the latter question but most new world viticultural study is focused on the former.

Matt would certainly not be the first writer to experience struggles at the podium. I do find my Pinot consumer friends focusing on distinguished land here in America these days, and then trying to find the best wines from those pieces of land.

Any interest these days in the true Sonoma coast Kevin?

[W_Leonard]

@Berry Crawford

@Tyler McAfee

So many pinot vineyards planted in the last 10 to 20 years are based largely on 115, 667, and 777. This lack of diversity surely diminishes some of the subtle nuances that a difference in climate and/or soil would reveal, no?

Wouldn’t using the same clones everywhere make terroir more apparent since you are removing a variable that would effect taste?

You are of course implying that soil (maybe weather?) is the only conduit for terroir. Which is a pretty rationalist way of putting that idea forward…

[larry_schaffer]

@W. Leonard

@Berry Crawford

@Tyler McAfee

So many pinot vineyards planted in the last 10 to 20 years are based largely on 115, 667, and 777. This lack of diversity surely diminishes some of the subtle nuances that a difference in climate and/or soil would reveal, no?

Wouldn’t using the same clones everywhere make terroir more apparent since you are removing a variable that would effect taste?

You are of course implying that soil (maybe weather?) is the only conduit for terroir. Which is a pretty rationalist way of putting that idea forward…

Not sure that’s what he’s implying, but you cannot discount microclimate as a whole here - and that goes far beyond soil . . . . aspect, absolute temperatures, diurnal swings, etc. need to be brought into account here as well . . .

[Kevin_Harvey]

@larry schaffer

Kevin,

The concept of ‘where to plant’ truly seems to be a newer phenomenon - especially when compared to ‘old world’ areas. What would be interesting to me, and I have no clue about this, is whether there are any ‘newer’ plantings in Burgundy, for instance, or what those are planted to. Ie, are there any ‘newer’ vineyards planted in the region?

Also, could someone plant a vineyard in Burgundy to something other than Pinot or Chardonnay or are they ‘required’ to do so? And if so, WHY? AOC regulations, or ‘science’ explaining that this is what’s ‘best’ for that land?

Curious to hear your thoughts . . .

Larry,
There are occasionally new (or reclaimed) plantings in Burgundy but they are rare. One I recommend is from Lamy. Olivier has a Chardonnay vineyard cut into the rock above St Aubin. It has no classification so he sells it as Bourgogne. It is an excellent wine and great example of the role of rocky soils in what people describe as “minerality”. There are many deep soiled Bourgogne blanc and none has similar “rocky” character.

On your second question, I am not sure if it is illegal to grow other varieties or if the wine would just lack classification. In either case, I haven’t heard of it being done. It’s important to remember that France does not have CAs extended warm fall weather. The temperature drops off sharply in late September which provides a much narrower range of varietal fit.

[Kevin_Harvey]

@Glenn L e v i n e

@Kevin Harvey

Meanwhile, Matt discusses the New World’s reliance on Science but I don’t think he articulated his real point very well. I think he was trying to make a point about the primacy of terroir and in some cases New World producers might be asking the wrong question. Instead of asking science to tell them “How do I make the best wine in the world from this piece of land I already have?”, he thinks they should be asking “Where is a piece of land that can produce truly distinguished wine?” Of course science can be used to help answer the latter question but most new world viticultural study is focused on the former.

Matt would certainly not be the first writer to experience struggles at the podium. I do find my Pinot consumer friends focusing on distinguished land here in America these days, and then trying to find the best wines from those pieces of land.

Any interest these days in the true Sonoma coast Kevin?

Glenn,
Many of the ridgetops of the Sonoma Coast (the true Sonoma Coast) have the physical properties that we look for (shallow rocky soils etc). But given that there are already many excellent examples, I don’t believe we would add anything new.

[larry_schaffer]

@Kevin Harvey

@larry schaffer

Kevin,

The concept of ‘where to plant’ truly seems to be a newer phenomenon - especially when compared to ‘old world’ areas. What would be interesting to me, and I have no clue about this, is whether there are any ‘newer’ plantings in Burgundy, for instance, or what those are planted to. Ie, are there any ‘newer’ vineyards planted in the region?

Also, could someone plant a vineyard in Burgundy to something other than Pinot or Chardonnay or are they ‘required’ to do so? And if so, WHY? AOC regulations, or ‘science’ explaining that this is what’s ‘best’ for that land?

Curious to hear your thoughts . . .

Larry,
There are occasionally new (or reclaimed) plantings in Burgundy but they are rare. One I recommend is from Lamy. Olivier has a Chardonnay vineyard cut into the rock above St Aubin. It has no classification so he sells it as Bourgogne. It is an excellent wine and great example of the role of rocky soils in what people describe as “minerality”. There are many deep soiled Bourgogne blanc and none has similar “rocky” character.

On your second question, I am not sure if it is illegal to grow other varieties or if the wine would just lack classification. In either case, I haven’t heard of it being done. It’s important to remember that France does not have CAs extended warm fall weather. The temperature drops off sharply in late September which provides a much narrower range of varietal fit.

Kevin,

Thanks. On your second point, there are other varieties that would handle this much narrower range of varietal fit, no? Stuff like Gewurztraminer on the white side. I’ll have to think a bit more on the red side, but I know there must be others . . .

Cheers

[Berry_Crawford]

@W. Leonard

You are of course implying that soil (maybe weather?) is the only conduit for terroir. Which is a pretty rationalist way of putting that idea forward…

I think soil chemistry, the physical properties of soil, weather, elevation, exposure and microbial fauna are all terroir parameters that influence how a resulting wine will taste.

[Berry_Crawford]

@larry schaffer

Also, could someone plant a vineyard in Burgundy to something other than Pinot or Chardonnay or are they ‘required’ to do so? And if so, WHY? AOC regulations, or ‘science’ explaining that this is what’s ‘best’ for that land?

Well it depends on the appellation but other varietals allowed in burgundy are: Gamay, Aligote, pinot blanc, pinot gris and Ceaser. There is even an appellation where Sauvignon blanc is allowed.

To answer your second question a lot of AOC regulations are not really designed to produce the “best” wines but are regulations to protect the consumer so they can get what they are expecting. Distinctiveness, tradition and authenticity are valued in france, not just quality.

[Stewart_Johnson]

I did like his point about green harvesting. I think that growers of the bordeaux varieties in CA got wildly phobic about anything underripe creeping in, and the fixation on uniformity of ripening spread to the rest of us. I think varieties like pinot and syrah have something interesting to add at a wide range of points along the ripeness continuum. The notion of the cabernet winemaker/savant proclaiming the moment of perfect ripeness doesn’t apply so much to pinot. I think Kramer is right that we should be comfortable with a range of ripeness levels existing in a pinot vineyard, and that the choice of picking dates is about skewing that mix in one direction or another rather than aiming at a single point of perfection.

[ryan_zepaltas]

@Stewart Johnson

I did like his point about green harvesting. I think that growers of the bordeaux varieties in CA got wildly phobic about anything underripe creeping in, and the fixation on uniformity of ripening spread to the rest of us. I think varieties like pinot and syrah have something interesting to add at a wide range of points along the ripeness continuum. The notion of the cabernet winemaker/savant proclaiming the moment of perfect ripeness doesn’t apply so much to pinot. I think Kramer is right that we should be comfortable with a range of ripeness levels existing in a pinot vineyard, and that the choice of picking dates is about skewing that mix in one direction or another rather than aiming at a single point of perfection.

I agree. That’s why i think sorting is extremely overrated. Unless the fruit is problematic, there is no reason to nitpick on the sorting line. Sort out the leaves, and dead squirrels, but leave the rest in.

[larry_schaffer]

But Ryan, those dead squirrels are part of the ‘terroir’ - why would you pull them out?!??!?! (-:

[larry_schaffer]

And I agree about sortlng - I understand that theoretically, if you remove all mog (materials other than grapes) the wine should be ‘better’ - but I don’t really see anyone ‘experimenting’ but keeping many lots separate - those sorted and the same grapes not - and I’d love to see this happen . . .

Cheers

[ryan_zepaltas]

@larry schaffer

But Ryan, those dead squirrels are part of the ‘terroir’ - why would you pull them out?!??!?! (-:

good point. damn, back to the drawing board.

[Stewart_Johnson]

@ryan zepaltas

@Stewart Johnson

I did like his point about green harvesting. I think that growers of the bordeaux varieties in CA got wildly phobic about anything underripe creeping in, and the fixation on uniformity of ripening spread to the rest of us. I think varieties like pinot and syrah have something interesting to add at a wide range of points along the ripeness continuum. The notion of the cabernet winemaker/savant proclaiming the moment of perfect ripeness doesn’t apply so much to pinot. I think Kramer is right that we should be comfortable with a range of ripeness levels existing in a pinot vineyard, and that the choice of picking dates is about skewing that mix in one direction or another rather than aiming at a single point of perfection.

I agree. That’s why i think sorting is extremely overrated. Unless the fruit is problematic, there is no reason to nitpick on the sorting line. Sort out the leaves, and dead squirrels, but leave the rest in.

I’ve gotten less uptight about sorting also. Once I started using a lot of whole cluster, I started feeling a little silly picking jacks out of the destemmed portion.
I’m actually a fan of any really dry leaves that make it into the bins. Crush them up, and they smell like tea.

[T_Fletcher1]

@larry schaffer

But Ryan, those dead squirrels are part of the ‘terroir’ - why would you pull them out?!??!?! (-:

I’ve eaten squirrel before…pretty sure I don’t want those flavors in my wine.

[Tyler_McAfee]

Kramer just wrote a piece last week claiming Central Otago to be one of a few areas in a “Golden Age” of wine (along with Burgundy, Oregon and the Mornington Peninsula), so the fact that this latest presentation occurred in NZ is certainly ironic. By the way, this link is to a much more thorough transcript.

Matt Kramer: Can Atheists Make Great Pinot Noir? : Vinography

[ryan_zepaltas]

@T Fletcher

@larry schaffer

But Ryan, those dead squirrels are part of the ‘terroir’ - why would you pull them out?!??!?! (-:

I’ve eaten squirrel before…pretty sure I don’t want those flavors in my wine.

burgundian squirrel is much better

[brigcampbell]

@ryan zepaltas

@larry schaffer

But Ryan, those dead squirrels are part of the ‘terroir’ - why would you pull them out?!??!?! (-:

good point. damn, back to the drawing board.

My very first visit to a winery, long ago, Mondavi, and on the tour as fruit was being dropped off so we watch. They dumped a tote into the hopper and there was a huge dead rat in there. Guess it adds that gamey flavor.