Noah,
Hey, no problem. Mistakes happen. I understand.
Thanks for listening to the show.
That’s great, glad to hear.
Hey Otto, you motivated me to actually open up a couple reference works to see what it is that they grow in the Alto Piemonte. It looks like it is the essentially the same as the Langhe; that is that Lampia and Michet are far and away the most prevelant Nebbiolo biotypes and Nebbiolo Rose could be found there too. I couldn’t get a sense for what the relative proportions of each is and if that differs from the Langhe, but at the very least it looks like they are starting with similar stuff there.
Regarding mixing of other varieties in the Alto Piemonte, it is my understanding that it is still extremely common to do that throughout the Alto Piemonte. Unless you are drinking a bottle that says it is 100% Nebbiolo, I’d actually assume that there is some vespolina, uva rara, and/or croatina in there as well. In fact, the appellation rules for Boca, Bramaterra, Fara, and Sizzano don’t even allow for 100% Nebbiolo. The other major appellations of the Alto Piemonte at least require a minimum of 85% Nebbiolo - your explanation of cooler climate influencing the darker color still definitely makes a whole lot of sense to me.
Great to know, thanks!
Regarding mixing of other varieties in the Alto Piemonte, it is my understanding that it is still extremely common to do that throughout the Alto Piemonte. Unless you are drinking a bottle that says it is 100% Nebbiolo, I’d actually assume that there is some vespolina, uva rara, and/or croatina in there as well. In fact, the appellation rules for Boca, Bramaterra, Fara, and Sizzano don’t even allow for 100% Nebbiolo. The other major appellations of the Alto Piemonte at least require a minimum of 85% Nebbiolo - your explanation of cooler climate influencing the darker color still definitely makes a whole lot of sense to me.
Yes, just to be clear, in this case I meant wines that are according to the producer made exclusively from Nebbiolo.
I can try to see if I can find that specific article.
Perhaps this is buried somewhere in these Nebbiolo Rose threads, but I wonder if anyone has a ready list at the tip of their fingers of wines that still contain a substantial portion of Rose. The 100% wines are one thing, but there are a number of wines that contain 20-30-50% (at least I think that’s the case). There have been 2 recent comments by posters here that Vajra Ravera contains quite a bit (?50%). Marchesi di Gresy Martinenga is another. And I believe Levi mentioned Vietti Lazzarito? What are some others with substantial percentages?
Levi Dalton is a class act!
Did some further digging, found this:
Apparently in Aosta they have their own unique clone not grown anywhere else (A, genotype Picoutener) but most of the clones they grow are the same they grow mainly in Alto Piemonte and exclusively in Valtellina (B, Spanna / Chiavennasca). It seems probably that this is one of the ancestor clones, because genotype A seems to be a chimeric mutation of genotype B. It would also explain why there aren’t any multiple clones of this genotype in Valtellina, as it arrived later there compared to the regions in Piedmont.
Biotypes C and D are closely related and belong to the same group as F and G (Michet). Based on this research, Michet and its close relatives seem to be the most widely-grown clones in Piedmont - grown almost exclusively in the Ossola Valley and otherwise throughout the Piedmont. The true Michet (G) seems to be grown only in the Langhe area, while its closest relative clone (F) seems to be the favored clone across Tanaro, in the Roero region. The biotype D, on the other hand seems to be the most widespread clone, found in all the regions except for Aosta and Valtellina.
Then there’s the weird biotype C, close relative of the clone D, of which they found only two samples, both in Alto Piemonte. Probably a mutation of D? Or possibly even vice versa, although seems less likely.
What’s very curious, though, is how rare E (biotype Lampia) is. It seems to be more distantly related to any other clones and they found only two samples of it in Barbaresco.
Here’s the tree diagram:
And re: Nebbiolo Rosè - while it seems to have a parent-offspring relationship with Nebbiolo, in the allelic discrimination plot it is closer to Muscat and Pinot than any of the other Nebbiolo clones!
Here’s the link to the reearch: Whole-genome sequencing and SNV genotyping of ‘Nebbiolo’ (Vitis vinifera L.) clones | Scientific Reports
Hi Otto,
I am no expert on the subject and that’s quite a document to get through. However from the experts I believe it’s been concluded that Michet is same as Lampia with the addition of virus. Rose as you mentioned, a closely related biotype.
What I mention now might be incorrect but recall hearing and reading that Valtellina area could likely be the original source giving the high diversity of the grape (higher degree of mutations?). Quite sure Isabella from Arpepe mentioned it when I met her for example.
That doesn’t seem to be in contrast with the data presented (although it is weird the research doesn’t mention anything about the fanleaf virus). However, the research shows that Michet and Lampia are more distinct from each other than the different close relative clones of Michet, whereas Lampia seems to have been propagated in purity with no clonal differences.
What I mention now might be incorrect but recall hearing and reading that Valtellina area could likely be the original source giving the high diversity of the grape (higher degree of mutations?). Quite sure Isabella from Arpepe mentioned it when I met her for example.
Yes, I’ve heard from some sources that Valtellina could be the source of Nebbiolo, but I’ve understood that is because there are quite many local varieties Nebbiolo is a parent of. However, if I’ve understood correctly (and this article seems to confirm this), there is very little clonal difference in Valtellina when it comes to Nebbiolo - according to this article, they could find only samples of one clone (biotype B); of course they also grow Chiavennaschino aka. Nebbiolo Rosè there, but that wasn’t a clone of Nebbiolo at all.
Based on the clonal differences alone, it seems more plausible that Nebbiolo has originated from Piedmont, not from Valtellina. It seems unlikely that they would’ve developed so many different clones in Piedmont, but not any in Valtellina, if it had originated from there.
If the topics addressed in this thread are of interest to you, I would recommend watching this video:
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Thanks for sharing Levi, very interesting!
In Ian D’Agata’s new website, he has a long review of recent vintages of Barbaresco. One producer he covers is Paitin (Serraboella, Neive) in which he describes one wine as “Medium-dark red. Pure aromas and flavours of red cherry and berries have a pretty floral top note: the presence of Nebbiolo Rosé is unmistakable here” and another as “Medium dark red colour; this is paler coloured than the Serraboella, showcasing the greater presence of Nebbiolo Rosé in the blend.”
In the past, producers sometimes added Barbera to Barolo or Barbaresco. This officially stopped with the DOCG rules requiring 100% Nebbiolo. If Nebbiolo Rose is a distinct variety from Nebbiolo, wouldn’t it follow that even with allowing the existing vines to be (grandfathered in), new plantings would not be acceptable?
I’m not aware that there are any new plantings of nebbiolo rose (If there are, it would be fun to know about it). Many places were tearing it out. What’s left over is what you are reading about, which, as you have pointed out, is grandfathered in.
John,
You actually made the comment: “Now of course most wish they had left their rows in, but it’s a matter of too little too late for many of them. Short of replanting it, that is.” So I thought that replanting might be an option. And at risk of misquoting Lorenzo Accomasso from Levi’s podcast, he said that the nurseries were filled with tons of different Nebbiolo clones. I thought Rose was included in that discussion, but I could very well be wrong.
Actually, Chris, I was quoting Ian’s post on the Vinous board there, so those weren’t my words. I haven’t listened to the Accomasso podcast, and have zero knowledge about what is being planted, so it would be interesting if anyone knows if Neb. rose is being planted again. I do find it a bit confusing when people talk about different “clones”, because, as I understand it, Neb. rose is now a different variety, not just a clone.
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There is one clone available of the variety Nebbiolo Rosé. If you were to consider Lampia instead, which is Nebbiolo, there are several clones available of Lampia.
This is what Accomasso was referring to when he said the Nebbiolo Rosé “is a little left behind”: there are less clones available of the variety.
I recommend taking a look at the video I posted in this thread.
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Thanks Levi. That was a fantastic interview. It really took me back to when I met him in 2003. Just like your interview, there where chickens all over the place and he talked about what a challenge it is to make Dolcetto.
Thanks.
I did finally listen to the Accomasso interview. Really fine stuff–we should be thankful someone is documenting and recording this as that window will close in the not too distant future. Thanks, Levi (and Greg del Piaz and Chris Thile).
Thanks for listening and commenting.