that’s the defeatist attitude. The Burgundy freaks complained long ago that there wasn’t enough Burg discussion…so they started topics, encouraged more discussion, posted frequently, and kept at it until it became the region focus of Wine Talk.
Bordeaux fans can do the very same, and with our forthcoming Special Guest, the timing couldn’t be better…
Todd,
As a Bordeaux fanatic, I would just like to concur that there is indeed a bias on the part of some Wine Berserkers posters against Bordeaux, and this board is a whole lot more Burgundy-friendly.
Mind you, this does not keep me from sleeping at night, nor do I feel threatened when I post on Bordeaux wines.
It’s just that for whatever reason (anyone know?), Wine Berserkers attracts an inordinate number of Burgundy afficionados compared to other wine boards.
Interesting.
For the record, I like Burgundy too and try to spend one week a year there. As opposed to some Burg fans, I do not close my mind to wines from other regions - and recognize the huge choice there can be in regions that are not necessarily my favorites.
Best regards,
Alex R.
Best regards,
Alex R.
For us geeks, here is some interesting info:
The criteria contributing to the final establishment of the grade are:
1/ the quality of wines considered by tasting of samples (50 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 30 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé)
2/ the fame of the vineyard (20 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 35 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé)
3/ the parcel plan and the homogeneity of the terroir (20 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 30 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé)
4/ the conduct of the vineyard (10 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 5 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé)
It is not any more about a competition, but about an examination, what entails two major changes.
A few other important facts :
I dunno, I used to think this Board was anti-Bdx when I moved over, but really, there is enough to keep Bdx fans engaged. It is pretty rare that I ever open a Burgundy thread, yet visit and participate here with regularity (especially the Asylum!). The fact that I also appreciate Chinons, Bojos and Northern Rhones is a bonus as these wines get some basic coverage too.
I love bordeaux. I just don’t care one iota for the St. Emilion classification system. But I do love to drink Bordeaux…2 '82 tastings coming up next week!
Absolutely agree. I think Angelus is there however.
Sorry I was not online yesterday to talk about the Classification. I am not around much today either. Somehow, real life and work took over playing on the Internet. I’ll put a stop to that as soon as possible.
However, this is a decent look at what took place, who won, who lost etc… And yes, Magdelaine is no more…
This is a look at all the changes, up and down that took place in the classification.
The 2012 St. Emilion Classification is official. It’s completed. It’s controversial. It’s going to make some people happy. Other people, not so much. Numerous chateaux have been elevated. For the first time since the St. Emilion Classification was created in 1955, two chateaux were added to the list of Premier Grand Cru Classé A. Joining Chateau Ausone and Chateau Cheval Blanc at the top of the pyramid are Chateau Angelus and Chateau Pavie in the 2012 St. Emilion Classification! Both wines are great! Bravo! They both worked hard to earn their new status. It’s also nice to see because Robert Parker spent so much time sharing his enthusiasm on both wines, especially, Pavie. It looks like he has been vindicated on that call. However, this news is already generating a lot of talk among wine lovers.
The news of the changes to the 2012 St. Emilion Classification was released a little at a time. For many people, this was confusing. If the information was available, why not release it in full? What happened is, each St. Emilion received their official notification of the 2012 St. Emilion Classification before any major announcement was made. At that point, it was up to the individual chateau if they wanted to share and promote their news or not. The complete list of all the changes to the 2012 St. Emilion classification became available September 6.
Does it matter? To the majority of American consumers, not a lot. In fact, it will not change what most consumers think of the wines. People are going to continue paying what they think the wines are worth. Keep in mind, Valandraud and La Mondotte were not classified until today. Yet, they were already two of the most expensive wines in St. Emilion. On the other end of the spectrum, Trottevieille and Magdelaine were considered First Growths, and both wines sold for less money than many lesser classified growths. That does not mean the 2012 St. Emilion Classification is not important. It is. And it’s an honor for all the chateau that produced wine at the level required for an upgrade in their status. For consumers worried that prices will increase for their favorite wines, that probably will not happen.
The 2012 St. Emilion Classification is much more than the Premier Grand Cru Classé A wines. Although that is big news! Equally important is discovering which chateaux were elevated to the Premier Grand Cru Classé B category. When the St. Emilion Classification was first created, a total of 12 chateau earned the right to label their wines as Premier Grand Cru Classé. Today that number has grown, and rightfully so. The level of quality being produced in St. Emilion has never been higher! While it’s easy to quibble over which chateau deserve to be labeled as Premier Grand Cru Classé B, and who should be demoted, overall, the wines being made in this category are at their best, sublime expressions of St. Emilion. The producers elevated to this category worked hard to get there. They are all stunning wines, from great estates and passionate about wine. It’s nice to see Jean-Luc Thunevin and Murielle get the recognition they deserve. Stephan Neipperg, with his approach to vineyard management has been making great wine at La Mondotte and Canon La Gaffeliere. The dynamic duo of Stephane Derenoncourt and Nicolas Thienpont took Larcis Ducasse from an under performing terroir and turned it into a strong and affordable, quality St. Emilion. They all deserve their new status.
The following producers were elevated to Premier Grand Cru Classé B status in the 2012 St. Emilion Classification making a total of 14 chateaux with the designation of Premier Grand Cru Classé B status:
Chateau Canon La Gaffeliere
Chateau Larcis Ducasse
La Mondotte
Valandraud
Chateau Magdelaine is no longer part of the classification of St. Emilion. The vines are now merged into Chateau Belair-Monange, which ironically, allows the vines to retain their First Growth status. Life can be funny like that sometimes.
Numerous changes in the 2012 St. Emilion Classification have also taken place in the Grand Cru Classé category. Today 63 estates share the honor of Grand Cru Classe status. The whopping 17 newest editions to Grand Cru Classe are:
Chateau Cote de Baleau
Chateau Barde Haut
Chateau Le Chatelet
Chateau Clos de Sarpe
Chateau Clos La Madeleine
Chateau La Commanderie
Chateau Faugeres
Chateau de Ferrand
Chateau Fombrauge
Chateau La Fleur Morange
Chateau Jean Faure
Chateau La Marzelle
Chateau Peby Faugeres
Chateau de Pressac
Chateau Quinault l’Enclos
Chateau Rochebelle
Chateau Sansonnet
Eight chateaux that were demoted from the 2006 St. Emilion Classification were once again awarded Grand Cru Classe status in the 2012 St. Emilion Classification:
Chateau Bellevue
Chateau Cadet Bon
Chateau Faurie de Souchard
Chateau Guadet – Previously known as Chateau Guadet Saint Julien
Chateau Petit Faurie deSoutard
Chateau Tertre Daugay which is now Chateau Quintus
Chateau Villemaurine
Chateau YonFigeac
The most interesting statistic from this entire reclassification is perhaps the following: a total of four chateaux were demoted in the 2012 St. Emilion Classification. Magdelaine from the position of First Growth and three from Grand Cru Classe status. I love Bordeaux wine. I want everyone to succeed. I spend a lot of my time in Bordeaux. The only thing I spend more on for Bordeaux is my money. I’ve tasted most of the wines on this page multiple times and several vintages. Many of the wines that earned Grand Cru Classe status in the 2012 St. Emilion Classification are stunning. But every wine on this list is not close to equal quality. I find it shocking that only 3 chateau were demoted from Grand Cru Classe status and one from Premier Grand Cru Classé A. But, that is the conclusion the impartial committee arrived at. The following three estates lost their Grand Cru Classe status.
Chateau Bergat
Chateau Cadet Piola
Chateau Corbin Michotte
For history buffs, this does not set a record for the number of Classified growths in St. Emilion at one time. The 2012 St. Emilion Classification has 81 members, while the Classification of 1969 had 84 chateaux included. While it was previously agreed on that properties would not contest the latest round of classifications. I would not be surprised to see some properties file suit, claiming the results were unfair. The more things change, the more they stay the same. If you want to read about how we got here, which is due to the 2006 classification: www.thewinecellarinsider.com/?page_id=164
Alex,
I hate to continue the thread drift, but I feel this is important, and Bordeaux fans are likely to read this thread, whereas other threads (a la a separate thread on this, which has occurred in the past) might not…
There are likely far more Bordeaux fans here than you think, and quite possibly more Bordeaux fans than Burgundy fans, as remember the first chunk of population here was from eRP, which is obviously Bordeaux-centric. They are just quieter than Burgundy fans, and again I stress that the Burgundy fans used to complain that there were not enough Burgundy threads (read the archives - if I have time, I’ll search them out, but not sure it matters, really) and that WB was all California, all the time. A small group (Ray Walker, Alan Weinberg, others) dedicated themselves to both starting new, interesting threads, and posting on them, through the slow start that is inevitable, and now look what we have - a very, very active Burgundy community. In the past, I’ve pointed this out, and the Bordeaux fanatics simply shrug it off as too difficult, or unlikely to succeed, so nothing gets done. If a small group of Bordeaux fanatics does the same thing as the Burg crew did, it will draw out the Bordeaux fans eventually, and the discussions will be rich and plentiful.
I watched it go down, folks…many others who are here every day did as well. What you need is a concentrated effort on encouraging discussion on Bordeaux, and the lurkers who prefer to post or read only about Bordeaux WILL come out and play.
This Magdelaine/Belair situation is even more puzzling than the classification story. For one thing, I had no idea that Belair had become Belair-Monange. And not only is Magdelaine dropped from the classification, but it’s been dropped from existence? For awhile, Magdelaine, Belair, and Canon have been something of a trinity of classic St. Emilions. And as best I could tell Magdelaine and Belair seemed to have different personalities. What will blending the two of them do? (Apparently, it raises the price. I see Belair-Monange 2009 is a $125 wine. I paid half that for the 2005 Magdelaine…)
Todd,
You make good points. The floor is wide open and I wish I had it in me to take the time Ray Walker has done to do a series on Bordeaux (where I have lived the past 30 years and whose wines I know and love) like he did of Burgundy.
It would also do people a lot of good to get away from the expensive snobby wines and learn about good, affordable Bordeaux.
If someone would share the load, I’d be game.
You rarely hear put-downs of Burgundy in Bordeaux. In fact, we don’t know the wines well and they are hard to find here. But everyone is aware that they help to form the triumvurate of fine French wines, along with Bordeaux and Champagne.
When someone says “I don’t like Bordeaux” I chuckle because it would be as absurd as saying “I don’t like Burgundy”.
Consider the amazing variety of wines on offer!
All the best,
Alex R.
Keith, FWIW, Beliar became Belair Monange in 2008. For details on why: http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/bordeaux-wine-producer-profiles/bordeaux/st-emilion/belaire-monange/
And yes, 2011 is the final vintage of Magdelaine.
Alex, you’d obviously be perfect for it, and the best time to start such an event is when Special Guest Thomas Duroux is here, as the Bordeaux fans will be out in force. (See? see what I’m trying to do to help out you Bordeaux folks? ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
)
Anyone else willing to help Alex out?
I see that Premier Cru has decided to celebrate Angelus’s promotion by, um, slashing the price on their 2011 more than 50%.
Keith, you have highlighted all that needs to be said about this charade. Neither Pavie nor Angelus is a legitimate collectible or pretender to first-growth quality, and the prices of both have always reflected, and will continue to reflect, those simple facts. Both are priced like the Parker-beloved New World Cab knockoffs that they are…
P.S. Those that can access “the other board” should take a gander at the ludicrous and desperate scrambles by Leve, Lempert-Schwarz, Litwar and Mauss to make this foolishness seem relevant. It has a vague flavor of the media reportage of Joe Paterno’s death…while he was still alive…
This is a joke, right? They actually promoted Angelus and Pavie to “A” class?
Remember guys, it’s partially based on them having fancy tasting rooms…or reception area…or clean bathrooms or something…blech
I’m selling all my Pavie’s…who wants them??
Ranking, funny when I buy burgundy it influences me when I buy bordeaux…nope
ok, back to my glass of Night Train…
I have to agree with those who view this as a non-event. The classification changes don’t move what I would pay for any of the included wines a single dollar upward or downward.
Instead of all of this energy expended on jockeying for position, I would have rather seen the owners focused on the fact that so few properties in St. Emilion seem distinctive enough for me to be brand loyal, and so many seem fungible.
Marc,
When it comes to Saint-Emilion or Sauternes, I think you’re right, the classification is not of paramount importance.
But it still means one heck of a lot in the Médoc!
There are lots of young, moneyed people in Asia learning about wine (China is Bordeaux’s no. 1 export customer in both value and volume). And their reference point is the classification (or, rather, the classifications).
Why were people so worked up about the St. Emilion classification? Because being classified means much higher prices, and the value of the vineyard is significantly higher too.
Obviously, experienced wine lovers take cru classé status as just one parameter among others. But with the mass of wine consumers, it’s a different story…
Best regards,
Alex R.
Alex, I guess I’ve tasted so many tasty unknown bordeauxs that I’m really not affected…if fact i actually more excited by find some inexpensive tasty unknown…I especially love bringing one to a blind tasting for the boys to see their surprise.
Drat, bad news on Magdelaine.
The classification does have tremendous value for the owner looking to sell the chateau, or a parcel of vines, as prices for the land moves in bands according to classification. So if I am a GCC, and want to expand, I need to buy the same or better to keep my classification.
To the consumer, even the Chinese consumer, this St. Emilion classification is almost entirely meaningless. The knowledgeable ones have other parameters, and the neophytes are much more interested in looking at what they think of as objective observers for help with with buying.
Not convinced? In 1855, one chateau has a better than first growth classification. Out of curiosity, without looking it up, do you know which chateau, and what is the classification? And then think how much difference it has made.